how about y opinion about man with long hair?

[Guest man]

Thank you Butero. You're a man of patience.

[nebula]

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

I'd still like to know how you explain this statement in light of the fact that Jewish men would cover their heads with a tallit when they prayed.

Simple. It is not talking about that kind of covering. It is talking about hair. The same mistake is constantly being made by women today that think they have to wear a veil. The veil is not their covering. Their long hair is.

Explain your reasoning to me, please.

I am adding this to my original post. This is a New Testament teaching, which is not accepted by the Jews, so the question is really irrelivant.

What about Jewish believers?

I am also unaware of anything in the law of Moses that tells all Jewish men to wear those head coverings. It is a tradition, not a commandment.

Well, this provokes a question. When did hair length first become an issue to the Lord? With this writing?

[BlindSeeker]

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

I'd still like to know how you explain this statement in light of the fact that Jewish men would cover their heads with a tallit when they prayed.

Simple. It is not talking about that kind of covering. It is talking about hair. The same mistake is constantly being made by women today that think they have to wear a veil. The veil is not their covering. Their long hair is.

Really . . .

Can you support it scripturally? Why then did these women cover their hair in scriptures?

Ge 24:65 For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

Ge 38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

Ge 38:19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.

Your assertion that it is only the hair and not the covering of the woman's glory (long hair) go contrary to historical understanding of Paul's intent and easily seen here.

Let me ask you a question, since Paul say's "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels," why do the angels cover their face/heads with their wings?

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Any thoughts?

[Guest Butero]

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

I'd still like to know how you explain this statement in light of the fact that Jewish men would cover their heads with a tallit when they prayed.

Simple. It is not talking about that kind of covering. It is talking about hair. The same mistake is constantly being made by women today that think they have to wear a veil. The veil is not their covering. Their long hair is.

Explain your reasoning to me, please.

I am adding this to my original post. This is a New Testament teaching, which is not accepted by the Jews, so the question is really irrelivant.

What about Jewish believers?

I am also unaware of anything in the law of Moses that tells all Jewish men to wear those head coverings. It is a tradition, not a commandment.

Well, this provokes a question. When did hair length first become an issue to the Lord? With this writing?

Explain my reasoning for what? Knowing that the hair is the covering rather than a hat or veil? It is in the text. Notice that in 1 Corinthians 11:15 it says, "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. It is not a veil or a hat but her hair. The previous verse says of the man Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? It doesn't say it is a shame for him to wear a hat.

I don't know of any place in scripture where Jewish believers or anyone else are told to wear any kind of hat. That is nothing more than a tradition, and it didn't have it's origins in the law of Moses or in scripture.

As for when hair length became an issue, I would assume it is in New Testament times? If you go back to verse 3 of 1 Corinthians chapter 11, we are told that "the head of every man is Christ" and right after that in verse 4 we are told "every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head," meaning Christ. The Jews have rejected Christ, with the exception of Jewish Christians, and again, I don't know where they are told anywhere in the Bible to wear a hat?

You are starting out with a flawed argument at the beginning, because you are trying to question how come Jewish people do something they are never commanded to do in the first place with something in scripture. Just because Jewish people have a tradition of doing something doesn't mean it is God ordained.

[Guest Butero]

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

I'd still like to know how you explain this statement in light of the fact that Jewish men would cover their heads with a tallit when they prayed.

Simple. It is not talking about that kind of covering. It is talking about hair. The same mistake is constantly being made by women today that think they have to wear a veil. The veil is not their covering. Their long hair is.

Really . . .

Can you support it scripturally? Why then did these women cover their hair in scriptures?

Ge 24:65 For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

Ge 38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

Ge 38:19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.

Your assertion that it is only the hair and not the covering of the woman's glory (long hair) go contrary to historical understanding of Paul's intent and easily seen here.

Let me ask you a question, since Paul say's "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels," why do the angels cover their face/heads with their wings?

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Any thoughts?

Historical teachings are not equal to scripture, so I am not concerned with "the historical understanding of Paul's intent." I have scripture that shows clearly what a woman's covering is, and it is right in the text. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this when it is so clearly laid out? 1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." It doesn't say her hat or veil. It says her hair.

There are angels that have wings, but there is no evidence that all angels have wings. You can find instances in scripture of angelic visitations, where the angels look just like men. The Bible even tells of entertaining angels unaware. There is no connection.

[Guest Butero]

Thank you Butero. You're a man of patience.

Thanks. I try.

[BlindSeeker]

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

I'd still like to know how you explain this statement in light of the fact that Jewish men would cover their heads with a tallit when they prayed.

Simple. It is not talking about that kind of covering. It is talking about hair. The same mistake is constantly being made by women today that think they have to wear a veil. The veil is not their covering. Their long hair is.

Really . . .

Can you support it scripturally? Why then did these women cover their hair in scriptures?

Ge 24:65 For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

Ge 38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

Ge 38:19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.

Your assertion that it is only the hair and not the covering of the woman's glory (long hair) go contrary to historical understanding of Paul's intent and easily seen here.

Let me ask you a question, since Paul say's "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels," why do the angels cover their face/heads with their wings?

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Any thoughts?

Historical teachings are not equal to scripture, so I am not concerned with "the historical understanding of Paul's intent." I have scripture that shows clearly what a woman's covering is, and it is right in the text. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this when it is so clearly laid out? 1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." It doesn't say her hat or veil. It says her hair.

There are angels that have wings, but there is no evidence that all angels have wings. You can find instances in scripture of angelic visitations, where the angels look just like men. The Bible even tells of entertaining angels unaware. There is no connection.

So then, perhaps you could expound then on Paul's intent, since you have scriptures clearly showing you, what did he mean by "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels?"

Please, explain. You cannot dismiss it just because you think the hair is the final covering being addressed.

Yes the hair serves as a natural covering and adornment of the woman, but we are also speaking of when a man and woman is "praying or prophesying."

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

So we clearly have two things which Paul specifically states which you have not yet addressed, the "when" and the "why," or "for this cause."

Why is the long hair given to the women as a glory?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair,

it is a glory to her

: for her hair is given her for a covering.

And are you confident that the " hair is given her for a covering" is not the thing requiring an additional covering lest her "glory" detracts from the glory God?

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as

he is the image and glory of God

: but the woman is the glory of the man.

So again I submit for everyone's consideration, why do the angels cover their face/heads with their wings?

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

So they do not detract in anyway from the glory due God.

For how did sin even enter into God's creation?

What was the "covering" given to the father of lies who corrupted wisdom and fell into iniquity by looking at his own glory which also was given to him by God as an adornment to compliment his position with God Himself?

Think it through . . .

.

[Guest Butero]

BUTERO Before I even attempt to answer these questions, I would like to point out that they are nothing more than a distraction, and yes, I can easily dismiss them. Whether or not I can answer them or not, the Bible is clear about certain things, like the fact that the hair is the woman's covering and when a man has long hair, it is a shame and it dishonors Christ. Those things are beyond Biblical dispute, so even if I cannot answer the questions you are posing to your satisfaction, those things won't change. It is not enough to confuse me or to try to show I cannot answer every question perfectly. I don't have perfect knowledge of all things, but what matters is, will God be happy with you if you dishonor Christ, and can you simply say to him on judgement day, "But Lord, you weren't clear enough about what long was, and the one person who was saying it was dishonoring Christ couldn't answer every question I had to the most minor details, so surely you won't hold this passage against me?"

BLINDSEEKER So then, perhaps you could expound then on Paul's intent, since you have scriptures clearly showing you, what did he mean by "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels?"

Please, explain. You cannot dismiss it just because you think the hair is the final covering being addressed.

BUTERO Yes I can dismiss it and no I can't. I can dismiss it as not being relevant to the fact that it will remain a shame for men to have long hair regardless of the reason, but I can't dismiss it because it is scripture. All it is saying is that when a woman has long hair, it is a sign to the angels she is under her husband's authority and covering.

BLINDSEEKER Yes the hair serves as a natural covering and adornment of the woman, but we are also speaking of when a man and woman is "praying or prophesying."

BUTERO Yes we are. I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that Christians pray.

BLINDSEEKER

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

So we clearly have two things which Paul specifically states which you have not yet addressed, the "when" and the "why," or "for this cause."

BUTERO Perhaps I am wrong? Maybe there are Christians that never pray, but I have to question what kind of Christians they are that never talk to God? If a man prays while having long hair, he dishonors his head. If he prophesies, or speaks forth the Word of God and has long hair, he dishonors his head. On the other hand, if the woman does either and she has short hair, she dishonors her head.

As to the why, it is a sign. Why Baptism? It is a sign to the world of what took place in the heart when a person was born again. Why the Lord's supper? It is a sign of Jesus crucifiction, the bread signifying his broken body, and the wine representing the blood he shed. God uses things as signs, and he alone has the right to decide what things represent what.

BLINDSEEKER Why is the long hair given to the women as a glory?

BUTERO I already gave a couple of examples. Let me give another. God had Moses put a serpent on a rod pointing to the healer to come, Jesus Christ. Why a serpent on a stick? Only God knows, and only God knows why he chose hair as a sign.

BLINDSEEKER

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair,

it is a glory to her

: for her hair is given her for a covering.

And are you confident that the " hair is given her for a covering" is not the thing requiring an additional covering lest her "glory" detracts from the glory God?

BUTERO I know that the Bible says that a woman's hair is given her for a covering. Your comment about it detracting from God's glory are your words. There is nothing in the passage that mentions any additional covering for the woman besides her long hair. On that I am confident, having just read it through, and having just typed it all out.

BLINDSEEKER

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as

he is the image and glory of God

: but the woman is the glory of the man.

So again I submit for everyone's consideration, why do the angels cover their face/heads with their wings?

BUTERO And I would again submit for everyone's consideration that not all angels do cover their face/heads with their wings, and even if they did, that is irrelevant. Just because you see some connection doesn't mean it exists. Wings and hair are not the same thing. In addition to that, it doesn't change the fact that it is a shame for a man to have long hair and it dishonors Christ, and it is a woman's glory to have long hair.

BLINDSEEKER

Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

So they do not detract in anyway from the glory due God.

BUTERO Great, now where in all of that does it say the reason they covered their face and feet were so they wouldn't detract in any way from the glory due God? It doesn't give a reason does it? You mentioned these angels, so I am going to show you other angels. In Genesis chapter 19, Lot was visited by two angels. He didn't perceive them to be angels because they looked like men. The same angels had also visited Abraham. Angels don't always have wings. Sometimes they appear in the form of men.

BLINDSEEKER For how did sin even enter into God's creation?

BUTERO It entered into God's creation when Satan and his angels rebelled. The first people to sin were Adam and Eve when they broke God's command about eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I don't see the relevance.

BLINDSEEKER What was the "covering" given to the father of lies who corrupted wisdom and fell into iniquity by looking at his own glory which also was given to him by God as an adornment to compliment his position with God Himself?

Think it through . . .

BUTERO I don't know of a covering given to the Father of lies. In Ezekiel 28:14, it says "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth," which indicates that the Lucifer himself was a covering, not that he had a covering. I don't see the relevance here either.

Here is the problem with everything you have said. Nothing has any bearing on the question being asked by the OP. The question is, "how about your opinon about a man with long hair? I said it was a shame, because that is what scripture says. The Bible also says that a man with short hair dishonors Christ. That is what scripture says. All of these questions might lead to further understanding of the why, but they won't have any bearing on the fact that if men want to honor Christ, they will keep their hair short, and if women want to honor their husbands and Christ, they will keep their hair long.

[Guest Butero]

I was told that I didn't cover this passage thoroughly enough, and I feel as though I did in this post. Perhaps there are some that didn't see it, so for their benefit, I am re-posting it. I covered every verse from 1 through 16.

1 BE ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Based on the reaction people get today when they mention any standards, Paul's comment to "keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you" would likely be seen as legalism today. An ordinance is a rule or a law.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

This is very important in light of what is to come. The supreme head is God the Father. He is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. The man is the head of the woman. Then comes the teaching on hair length, which deals with an outward sign of submission to God's order.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Notice again that the head of man is Christ. If he prays or prophesies with his head covered he dishonors Christ. The head of the woman is man, so if she prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head. Some believe the covering is a veil, but we will soon see that is not the case.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If the woman is going to have short hair, she might as well be bald, but if it is a shame for her to be bald, let her have long hair.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

God created Adam in his image. He then took one of Adam's ribs and created a woman as a help meet for the man. The man wasn't created as a help meet for the woman, but the woman was created as a help meet for the man. As such, the man shouldn't have his head covered, or shouldn't have long hair, because he is in the image and glory of God, but since the woman is the glory of the man, she should have long hair.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

The woman is to have long hair as a sign of being under her husband's authority in the presence of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Mankind would cease to exist without the man or the woman. It takes the man's seed joining with the woman's egg to create a child, so the man is not without the woman, neither the woman without the man, and God is the creator of us all.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

Comely means beautiful. Is is beautiful for a woman to pray to God having short hair. The implication is that the answer is no.

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

It is a shame for a man to have long hair, but it is a woman's glory to have long hair, because God gave the woman her hair to be a covering. It is not a veil, but it is her long hair that is her covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

This is not a sin issue, but it is a sign of submission. When a man has long hair, it is a shame, and dishonors Christ. When a woman has short hair, it is not comely in the sight of God, and she dishonors her husband, which in turn would dishonor Christ. If someone seems to be contentious, and are plenty of contentious people in this thread, and they refuse to follow this teaching, so be it. This is not a sin matter. I don't want to dishonor Christ, therefore I keep my hair short. If someone else preferes to be contentious, feel free to do so.

[Fez]

I agree with Shiloh that this post is a mere distraction. Long hair, short hair, who cares?

Jesus wants you in your entirety, not your long hair, or your short hair?

Will your long hair have any meaning when you stand before Him? I think not.

Blessings