The Great Whore of the Revelation (chp 18)

[AnotherTraveler]

[The Woman = Jerusalem

OK - so why are the merchants of the earth mourning the destruction of Jerusalem?

vs. 3 - "...and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

Since when was this descriptive of Jerusalem?

That is correct. The woman represents something more then just the city of Jerusalem. She is a world wide entity.

Well, I'll give this a shot. Keep your rope handy, you might want to lynch me when I am done )

The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

Nahum 2:4 (KJV)

If you or I lived in a day and age of horses and chariots, and we had a vision of modern interstate travel in automobiles, we might think that they "run like the lightnings". It's interesting that it says chariots but not horses here.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 13:14-15 (KJV)

The image of the beast (not the beast itself, but the image of it) has sight and speaks, and miracles to deceive are done "in the sight of the beast", so there is a limit to what the beast can do and what the beast sees.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:20 (KJV)

The beast and the false prophet are alive (they are living beings). The image of the beast is not alive, but likely is a world wide system that the beast uses to expand and express his power.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thess 2:3-12 (KJV)

The false prophet (a live being) likely points to the beast (also a live being) that expresses himself with lying wonders via the image of the beast that both sees and speaks, and has a world wide web of influence (hmmm, www...world wide web). I don't think machines ever become "self aware", but the devil might certainly use the future world wide web, artificial intellegence, virtual reality, satalite communications, and highly technoglical electronic monetary and monitoring systems to force all trade to be done via electronic funds transfers, forcing all to "take the mark of the beast" in order to buy, sell, or trade.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:3 (KJV)

The woman "sits" on the beast (if it is the same beast).

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Rev 17:16 (KJV)

The ten horns of the beast HATE the whore, make her desolate, eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:12-13 (KJV)

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 17:14 (KJV)

The ten kings hate the whore and they also make war with the Lamb.

So, I think that the ten kings are muslim arab kingdoms (nations), the false prophet is the coming false muslim prophet, they hate the whore which seams to include the Catholic church but might be of a broader application, and the fall of corrupt religious, political, military, and economic authority will cause the diminishing of the control of the world wide web to fall into the hands of the beast. All Christian-like manifestations will be attacked and the "whore" aspect will be destroyed by the beast. The Lamb will overcome them though.

So there are three main players, and they are each different one from the other. The false prophet (a living being), the beast (a living being), and the whore (likely a system of religious evil). Also there is the image of the beast, another system that controls the economy, demands worship, and forces all to take the make of the beast.

[Guest shiloh357]

So there are three main players, and they are each different one from the other. The false prophet (a living being), the beast (a living being), and the whore (likely a system of religious evil). Also there is the image of the beast, another system that controls the economy, demands worship, and forces all to take the make of the beast.

Gotta go with AT on this one. That was an excellent analysis.

[nebula]

[The Woman = Jerusalem

OK - so why are the merchants of the earth mourning the destruction of Jerusalem?

vs. 3 - "...and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

Since when was this descriptive of Jerusalem?

Why wouldn't the merchants of the earth mourn the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rev. 18

11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. 14 "They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out: "'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' "Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: "'Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

I fail to see how Jerusalem fits this description at all.

What merchants are getting rich off of Jerusalem?

[nebula]

TEchnical foul - two minute penalty for non-sequiter argument.

Technical foul, offense - ad hominum argument. 15 yard penalty, replay the down.

Technical foul, offense - post hoc argument. Fifteen yard penalty, replay the down

[Fraught]

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

ToniR: yes, there is a passage in the bible where God does refer to Jerusalem exactly as symbolically egypt and sodom. i cannot find it right now but i absolutely remember it because i was shocked when i read it.

[Isa]

I believe the Roman Catholic Church has something to do with it. I believe they are apart of the political and religious side of it. I believe they have their finger in the pie. Just by what you read in Revelation 18 explains her down to a T. Babylon is where all religions started from. God confused the languages and they took their ownbeliefs with them. So the whore of false religion is the Roman Catholic Church ad she has funded many crusaides to kill God's people throughout history. She has the blood of the saints on her hands and with all that money she can by off any political party.

Why would the nations cry over her because she funded them and made them rich and they felt safe with her. Now she's gone they don't know what to expect, think about all the riches that God destroys with her, they are probably more concerned about the riches than the hore herself.

Technical foul, offense - post hoc argument. Fifteen yard penalty, replay the down

Sorry, I went over the line but my team was playing the game by the rules

I can only say what I believe.

[Isa]

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

ToniR: yes, there is a passage in the bible where God does refer to Jerusalem exactly as symbolically egypt and sodom. i cannot find it right now but i absolutely remember it because i was shocked when i read it.

Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

[Isa]

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

ToniR: yes, there is a passage in the bible where God does refer to Jerusalem exactly as symbolically egypt and sodom. i cannot find it right now but i absolutely remember it because i was shocked when i read it.

Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

[Isa]

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

ToniR: yes, there is a passage in the bible where God does refer to Jerusalem exactly as symbolically egypt and sodom. i cannot find it right now but i absolutely remember it because i was shocked when i read it.

sorry double post

Edited December 2, 2007 by Isa

[nebula]

To shed some light on the subject, what merchants of the world, including Israel, are getting rich off of Jerusalem today?

None that I know of.

What merchants plan on getting rich off the division of Jerusalem in Zachariah 14, when they come to take the spoil, when the city is divided? And who in Israel is helping this all to come about?

I am not aware that the division of Jerusalem has anything to do with merchants getting wealthy or selling precious goods.

BEHOLD, the day of the Lord cometh and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jersualem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zech 14:1,2

When Babylon is destroyed, Heaven will rejoice at her destruction.

When Jerusalem is attacked, the Lord will fight against those nations (Zech. 14:3).

I fail to see the destruction of Babylon and the gathering of the nations against Jerusalem as the same by this merit.