Calvin vs. Arminius

[OneLight]

And the "cosmos" translated world, does it mean every last person that lived in all the verses that it is used? Or is it a general term determined by the context as in:

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There is clearly a distinction between the believers/disciples and the rest of humanity here.

So now how does your theology reconcile the fact that Jesus will not loose any of His people/sheep? And the pharasees were not His sheep and do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep to begin with.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus came to save His people from their sin. Those that are not His He did not come to save.

And how do you understand this verse.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

When anyone uses the word loose, what does it imply? If I was to loose something, then it was in my ability to not loose it, meaning that Jesus will not allow anything happen to the relationship of a believer as long as the believer is in agreement. Even Romans 8:38-39 states "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.", which clearly show that there is no way Jesus will loose one of His own if the one wants to remain in Him. Read the verse carefully. Who is not mentioned in it? What is excluded for this verse? The word "you" and the idea of one turning away willfully. This verse, and all other verses, requires the willingness of the one to remain in Him. This does not mean that if we decide to turn from our salvation that He will not allow us to do so. He will, with everything He has, convict us of the sin that is causing the separation, but He will not force Himself on us to remain.

What good is a relationship if one is forced to remain in it against their will? Where is the love that God holds so dearly and is the center of Who He is? Choice allows for this love to grow and this growth will draw us closer to Him, as long as the one is willing to follow Him. The problem is when people overlook that fact that we humans make bad decisions, which, in turn, closes the relationship between us and God.

Jesus came to save those who are willing to accept Him. If Jesus came for only a few, scripture would never indicate that Jesus came to save the world. In order to believe that, what is spoken in the very verses that are the most well know is a lie. John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Notice how it is worded; "whoever believes" and "might be saved" screams choice.

[childeye]

We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Jushus 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Hi OneLight. I would ask you to take note of the scripture above where it says,"If it seems evil to you". Clearly, Joshua is impressing upon the people that there is something wrong with choosing another god. Just as your moniker implies, there is only One God and there is nothing wrong with serving Him. Joshua is implying there is something wrong with the minds of a people that would seek a different God and this is why people like me don't like the philosophy of free will. For while we have an ability to choose by means of being able to reason, our reasoning is compromised if we have an ignorance of godly things and that is a blindness which we would not see. I happen to believe therefore that a freewill is one who has been freed by the knowledge of God wherein there is Life. If we know God, we will desire to serve Him and Him alone. If we think we have a choice,not only do we not know Him, we do not even understand the term God.

[OneLight]

We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Joshua 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Hi OneLight. I would ask you to take note of the scripture above where it says,"If it seems evil to you". Clearly, Joshua is impressing upon the people that there is something wrong with choosing another god. Just as your moniker implies, there is only One God and there is nothing wrong with serving Him. Joshua is implying there is something wrong with the minds of a people that would seek a different God and this is why people like me don't like the philosophy of free will. For while we have an ability to choose by means of being able to reason, our reasoning is compromised if we have an ignorance of godly things and that is a blindness which we would not see. I happen to believe therefore that a freewill is one who has been freed by the knowledge of God wherein there is Life. If we know God, we will desire to serve Him and Him alone. If we think we have a choice,not only do we not know Him, we do not even understand the term God.

Choice is all through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. If you choose to not believe in what scripture has to say, you can choose not to. That is your choice, and we will all stand accountable for what path we choose to follow. If you wish to continue this discussion, start a new thread, for free will is not what this thread is about.

[childeye]

We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Joshua 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Hi OneLight. I would ask you to take note of the scripture above where it says,"If it seems evil to you". Clearly, Joshua is impressing upon the people that there is something wrong with choosing another god. Just as your moniker implies, there is only One God and there is nothing wrong with serving Him. Joshua is implying there is something wrong with the minds of a people that would seek a different God and this is why people like me don't like the philosophy of free will. For while we have an ability to choose by means of being able to reason, our reasoning is compromised if we have an ignorance of godly things and that is a blindness which we would not see. I happen to believe therefore that a freewill is one who has been freed by the knowledge of God wherein there is Life. If we know God, we will desire to serve Him and Him alone. If we think we have a choice,not only do we not know Him, we do not even understand the term God.

Choice is all through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. If you choose to not believe in what scripture has to say, you can choose not to. That is your choice, and we will all stand accountable for what path we choose to follow. If you wish to continue this discussion, start a new thread, for free will is not what this thread is about.

Choice is all of life. There is not one second where we are not choosing to do something. Hence I am not debating whether there are choices to be made. I am pointing out that there are no other gods and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant of that fact, plain and simple. I think you would agree.

[asper]

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,

choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

The choice was which gods they were to serve if it seemed evil to serve the Lord,

“whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,”

“or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell”

So no, this verse does not teach a choice to choose the Lord.

De 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;

3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:

4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.

7 And when ye came unto this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, came out against us unto battle, and we smote them:

8 And we took their land, and gave it for an inheritance unto the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to the half tribe of Manasseh.

9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ps 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Edited April 2, 2013 by asper

[enoob57]

I am 100% Calvinist ... the whole bible supports it if you read the root meaning of the more tripped up words such as "all" and keep things in context.

keep studying

[larryt]

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding.

By this are you saying that I am not taking into account ALL Scripture? This is true that we can be led astray if WE do not look at the whole picture.

We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came.

This is the point I was getting at. Foreknowledge is not about Omniscience or Omnipressence. It is not about man's choice. If God chooses based on a man's choice then it is not a Sovereign God choosing whom He will.

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

You have not explained how Jesus NEVER KNEW them..... Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And if you do not understand what it means to be foreknown of God you are missing a major part of what it means to be saved.

The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice.

If foreknowledge is omniscience then God is not omniscient. Jesus said I never knew you to those that claimed to do good deeds.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Secondly if foreknowledge is knowing before hand then salvation is based on those that will choose and not God's sovereignty. It makes God a respecter of persons because He "respects" them because they will choose and those that won't are not chosen.

We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Jushus 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Does this mean God is not Omniscience or Omniscient? Not at all. The ability for us to choose is His plan, not ours.

Does this mean God is not Sovereign? Not at all, since He created us with the ability to choose.

Does this mean that God is a respecter of man? That depends on what you believe that verse is speaking to. The word respecter is not speaking to the will of man to choose, but that He will not follow what mans decides if it goes against His will. In other words, if a man decides that God has to accept him the way he is because that is his choice, God will not respect that persons decision to be accepted while being out of His will. That does not mean that we don't have a choice, for 1 Corinthians 13 is all about love. There is no room for love to be forceful in this passage "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails". God gives us the ability to choose if we will follow Him or not. He will not force Himself on us so we have to accept. Everything about salvation has to be a willful act of the one seeking salvation.

The idea that man has the ability to choose is not the question. Adam was created with the ability to choose and he used that choice to disobey. What was the result. He became totally in bondage to sin. His thinking, his emotions, his will, his flesh, everything was totally in bondgae to sin.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This whole post boils down to do you believe that man is totally depraved as one of the points of Calvinism or do you believe that man is only wounded and can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own ...... choose to love God on his own. After all you seem to say that God bases His choice in salvation on those that He sees will choose Him if I understand your point.

[GoldenEagle]

I am 100% Calvinist ... the whole bible supports it if you read the root meaning of the more tripped up words such as "all" and keep things in context.

keep studying

This entire thread makes me tired.

[enoob57]

I am 100% Calvinist ... the whole bible supports it if you read the root meaning of the more tripped up words such as "all" and keep things in context.

keep studying

This entire thread makes me tired.

no lullaby needed here then

why 100 % anything cannot be according to the Bible- Of God's Sovereignty when choice is clearly placed

into His Creation from the very beginning...

Ezek 18:32

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"

NKJV

Ezek 18:21-23

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does

what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has

committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall

live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he

should turn from his ways and live?

NKJV

Isa 48:16-19

16 "Come near to Me, hear this:

I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

From the time that it was, I was there.

And now the Lord God and His Spirit

Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,

The Holy One of Israel:

"I am the Lord your God,

Who teaches you to profit,

Who leads you by the way you should go.

18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!

Then your peace would have been like a river,

And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand,

And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand;

His name would not have been cut off

Nor destroyed from before Me."

NKJV

Phil 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more

in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both

to will and to do for His good pleasure.

NKJV

God's Good Pleasure is His Will in all things, even in the wicked, BUT that would not-> for if they would He would have

worked it! Love, Steven

[larryt]

I am 100% Calvinist ... the whole bible supports it if you read the root meaning of the more tripped up words such as "all" and keep things in context.

keep studying

This entire thread makes me tired.

To earnestly content for the faith means just that. It is the fact that men do not have convictions nor are they confident in what they believe. I can never tire of serving my Lord.

God is sovereign or He is not. (Most do not know what the sovereignty of God really means nor have they thought much about it.)

Man is totally depraved or he is not.

God loves everyone? Tell that to the inhabitants of Sodom or those that live in Noah's day. God loves His people and hates all the workers of iniquity.

The saint will persevere by trusting in God alone and not anything in themselves, or they can walk away because they have free will and trust they can hold on.

The adversary is always trying to put heresies in the mind of people and they are necessary to show who really believes and who doesn't.