I've been wondering ................

[Guest shiloh357]

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

First of all, Jesus was not a martyr. Jesus' died when He wanted to die, and not a moment sooner or later. Jesus was in complete control of the events that surrounded His death. Jesus died at 3:00 p.m. (between the evenings) the exact moment the Passover lamb slain in the Temple. Jesus' death was a sacrifice, not a martyr's death, not an execution, and not a murder. No one took Jesus' life. If Jesus' death is not a voluntary sacrifice, then He is not Savior of the world, because His death would not match the OT prophecies of the Messiah being a Lamb offered for sin.

Secondly, had Jesus fought the oppressors, had Jesus called down the legions of angels, He would have been proclaimed Messiah at that time, He would have been received by Israel and the result of that is that the church age would never have happened. Israel would have gone straight into the Messianic Kingdom, and the Gentiles would have been left out in the cold. Jesus' first coming was to be the Savior of the world. He did not come to operate in the office of King at that time.

Which brings up another point: Do you think that Jesus was "in on the plan" from the beginning, i.e. from when he was first baptized and started his ministry? Or maybe even from childhood?

The Bible says that Jesus was considered the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew in eternity past even before the world was created what He was going to do. He did not force Judas to do what He did, but He knew Judas would betray Him. There was not a time in history or eternity past that Jesus was not "in on the plan."

[tsth]

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

It came to me this morning during service, that Jesus DID show He was God, and most certainly had the power to overcome them. And He also went through with fulfulling the Scriptures and seeing out what was prophesied.

Here is where He showed WHO HE WAS and the POWER HE HAD!

Remember when He was surrounded by the Roman soldiers? And they said "we are looking for Jesus", and He said "I AM". They were knocked to the ground. An army of Roman soldiers were leveled, by the words........"I AM"!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[peaches]

crazy crazy stuff here!

tsth, I read further the scripture you just posted and found this:

In John 18: 9, Jesus says, I am guessing right after the kiss of betrayal, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

so i am like, hmmm, how can He say that when in reality, He had lost Judas

then I found another reference in John 17:12 were Christ says "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

then i went to my hand dandy mac dictionary and it says:

Perdition: A state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unpenitent person suffers after death.

I think this says it all.

[stan4257]

First of all, Jesus was not a martyr. Jesus' died when He wanted to die, and not a moment sooner or later. Jesus was in complete control of the events that surrounded His death. Jesus died at 3:00 p.m. (between the evenings) the exact moment the Passover lamb slain in the Temple. Jesus' death was a sacrifice, not a martyr's death, not an execution, and not a murder. No one took Jesus' life. If Jesus' death is not a voluntary sacrifice, then He is not Savior of the world, because His death would not match the OT prophecies of the Messiah being a Lamb offered for sin.

Secondly, had Jesus fought the oppressors, had Jesus called down the legions of angels, He would have been proclaimed Messiah at that time, He would have been received by Israel and the result of that is that the church age would never have happened. Israel would have gone straight into the Messianic Kingdom, and the Gentiles would have been left out in the cold. Jesus' first coming was to be the Savior of the world. He did not come to operate in the office of King at that time.

Great to have access to such insight.

I did not know of the 3pm time of the sacrifice in those days, nor had I really understood what a lot gentiles owe to Israel for not recognising that the Messiah had come and was living with them, yet both facts are very significant.

The second of the two facts makes me feel very sad, to think of all Israel has been through since then, even though I recognise that no gentiles would have been saved if Israel had not. It seems such a huge sacrifice for which, speaking for myself, I am not worthy, nor is it easy to understand the love that lies behind it when thinking of things like the Holocaust, for example.

Were if for me to decide, I would not for one minute accept the suffering of even one little child in the gas ovens so that I might be free.

Thank you.

[nebula]

nor had I really understood what a lot gentiles owe to Israel for not recognising that the Messiah had come and was living with them, . . .

The second of the two facts makes me feel very sad, to think of all Israel has been through since then, even though I recognise that no gentiles would have been saved if Israel had not. It seems such a huge sacrifice for which, speaking for myself, I am not worthy, nor is it easy to understand the love that lies behind it when thinking of things like the Holocaust, for example.

Yes - and amen.

We owe our very lives to the Jews,a nd we should show them gratitude and honor for it.

[Guest]

This was not the first time I came across the theory that Judas wanted Jesus to lead a revolution against the Roman oppressors. I have read that a lot of people including most of the deciples expected that, many, many times. However, it was always presented as speculation as nowhere Biblically does it actually say that.

<snip>

It seems logical that a lot of people were hoping that Jesus had become one of them in order to deliver them from all this.

As "seeing is believing", he might have instantly collected hundreds or thousands more followers if he had taken an anti-Roman stance. Does anyone have any theories on this?

I'll give it a shot. As mentioned before, the people of the time were looking for a conquering Messiah, not a suffering servant that no one had ever heard of. I think that's the main thing that threw them off about Jesus' ministry -- He wasn't the conquering King they were looking for. Also, He took pains at times to avoid the public eye, and at least once the Gospels mention a crowd about to take Him by force and make Him King.

Christ didn't take an anti-Roman stance for good reason, I think. He would have been executed for treason and Rome came down like a mountain of rocks on traitors. Not only that, but His disciples would be hunted down as traitors too. Strange thing is that all that happened any way. I can't explain it, unless it would have had something to do with submitting yourself to the (government) authorities, unless that government is telling you to do something against God's word.

[Openly Curious]

And why do you suppose Judas has been so villified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

the fact is that the notion that Judas was trying to goad Jesus into fighting the Romans is not in the Bible. It offers no such motive for Judas. So, that is really more conjecture than anything else.

Secondly, the Bible reveals a man named Judas who was at heart a very dishonest man. Judas was the treasureer of this group of disciples. He handled the money and the Bible tells us that Judas was skimming from the treasury. When the woman poured spikenard on the feet of Jesus, Judas claimed it to be a waste but should have been sold and the money given to the poor, but the Bible says Judas wanted the money for himself.

Jesus called Judas "a devil." It would appear that Judas' betrayal of Jesus was done under demonic influence and once done, the influence left him, and then, returning to his senses, seeing what he has done, is filled with remorse is unconsolable and in a rash moment of irrational grief, commits suicide.

Had Judas NOT committed suicide, I believe he would have been restored by Jesus after Jesus resurrection just like Peter was, and who knows if Judas might have gone on to be one of the major figures of the NT? We can only speculate how Judas might have been used by the Lord had he not committed suicide.

ya hit the nail right on the head

OC

[Openly Curious]

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

First of all, Jesus was not a martyr. Jesus' died when He wanted to die, and not a moment sooner or later. Jesus was in complete control of the events that surrounded His death. Jesus died at 3:00 p.m. (between the evenings) the exact moment the Passover lamb slain in the Temple. Jesus' death was a sacrifice, not a martyr's death, not an execution, and not a murder. No one took Jesus' life. If Jesus' death is not a voluntary sacrifice, then He is not Savior of the world, because His death would not match the OT prophecies of the Messiah being a Lamb offered for sin.

Secondly, had Jesus fought the oppressors, had Jesus called down the legions of angels, He would have been proclaimed Messiah at that time, He would have been received by Israel and the result of that is that the church age would never have happened. Israel would have gone straight into the Messianic Kingdom, and the Gentiles would have been left out in the cold. Jesus' first coming was to be the Savior of the world. He did not come to operate in the office of King at that time.

Which brings up another point: Do you think that Jesus was "in on the plan" from the beginning, i.e. from when he was first baptized and started his ministry? Or maybe even from childhood?

The Bible says that Jesus was considered the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew in eternity past even before the world was created what He was going to do. He did not force Judas to do what He did, but He knew Judas would betray Him. There was not a time in history or eternity past that Jesus was not "in on the plan."

Amen, Jesus was the sscrificial lamb and layed down his life willingly

Great Post Shiloh

OC

[Massorite]

I've been reading a book about Jesus' death and resurrection. It is a story about an American police detective who is "expert in his field" and suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Jerusalem in the first century, just after the death of Jesus so he goes round interviewing any witnesses and anyone who might have known Jesus and taking "forensic" samples from different scenes that had something to do with the arrest of Jesus, the "trial" and torture and death.

When it came to the part where the hero interviews one of the disciples about the suicide of Judas and the decile offers his opinion - when asked why he thought Judas betrayed Jesus, then killed himself - that Judas was distraught because he (Judas) betrayed Jesus to "back him into a corner" and "goad" him into fighting against the Roman oppressors, but this course of action hadn't worked.

I have wondered about this many times before, and this story just brought it up again in my mind.

I know that everything that happened to Jesus at that time was part of the "grand plan", but it strikes me that it was little understood by anyone at the time, and has made for a lot of mystery and doubt since. There are now Christians who are absolutely certain of the power of Jesus because they have personally experienced so many things, and there are those Christians who are in a near-constant struggle to live the Christian life.

There are, of course, multitudes of doubters in Christ.

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

And why do you suppose Judas has been so vilified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

First of all we must remember that the bible says that the "devil entered into Judas" so by this we know that Judas was possessed at the time that he betrayed Jesus and was still possessed at the moment he was dipping the bread in the bowl with Jesus.

The question here is "how is it that the devil was able to possess Judas while Judas was with Jesus and one of His disciples? The answer is in the actions of Judas. He did it for the money. In spite of the teachings of Jesus there was a part of Judas that he never turned over to God for rebuilding. He had his own reasoning and his own plan of action on what should be done and thought he could control God and His actions. And his motivations was money and self centered so satan was able to possess him and have an influence on his actions.

Jesus didn't call down the angels because it was not in the plan of God for Him to do so and He practiced what He preached. Which was obedience to the Father at all costs. Besides that if Jesus and the angels killed off all of the Romans who would have been there to crucify Him? Who would have been there to force the Gospel to be spread through out the world? Had it not been for the persecution of the early church by the Romans the Gospel would have gone nowhere. If Jesus had called down the angels the Jew would never have killed Him because He would have proved that He was indeed the son of God with the power to call down the angels.

We should remember that the Jews misinterpreted the scriptures. They understood what the bible was saying as speaking about an outward war on earth with all the same stuff they always had. But they were wrong

Just a point about your statements with regard to Judases personality and motives. Firstly if he was so dishonest why did Jesus have him as a disciple? As Jesus knew that Judas would betray him (the same as he predicted that Peter would deny him) he must have known that Judas was money-grubbing and possessed by the devil so why did he put up with it?

Or are you saying that as Jesus had taken on the body of a mortal, he was just as vulnerable as any of us, to deception?

Which brings up another point: Do you think that Jesus was "in on the plan" from the beginning, i.e. from when he was first baptized and started his ministry? Or maybe even from childhood?

Good question. Jesus did according to the while of His Father and the will of His Father was to let Judas do as he had intended. Was Jesus vulnerable to deception? Obviously not because he knew what Judas was going to do before he did it.

When Judas first became a disciple he was not possessed. That happened later according to scripture. Was Judas imperfect when Jesus took him under His wing? Yes he was and so were the rest of them. The difference is that in side, Judas never changed from what he was before Jesus came along and that was the his choice.

Peter on the other hand did change but out of fear he denied Jesus. But Jesus knew Peters heart like He knew the heart of Judas. Peter came back to Jesus and Judas hung himself.