3 Plain Statements About The Rapture

[MorningGlory]

Instead, those ideas sound like they came right out of the Left-Behind series books by Hagee that the pre-trib "secret rapture" churches are busy with instead of staying in God's Holy Writ.

Don't you mean the Left Behind series by Jerry LaHaye??? There really is no 'secret' Rapture....everyone knows about it.

[truthbringer]

[2] I can put some scriptures that prove the Church is rapturerd before the tribulation.

If you could have, you would have.

Simple fact.

I need time to explain the scriptures, and what the original Greek says,[if necisary] And I need to pray that you will let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to you, You like most Post trib people have your own preconceived idear's what the Bible says, But when asked to show from the Bible that the Church goes through the tribulation, [Not the backsliders, The Jews"Elect" or the Gentiles], you cannot produce scripture.

Edited August 25, 2008 by truthbringer

[Leonard]

I'll give you another plain statement about the rapture, from the lips of Jesus Himself in John 17, to wit: "Father I do not pray that you will take them out of the world, but that you will sanctify them in the world."

[sheya joie]

I believe in Pre-Trib, but call myself a Pan-Trib: it'll all pan out in the end!

God truly IS in control. Sometimes I think people believe us and our works (or lack thereof) have more to do with salvation than the Holy Spirit does! God doesn't NEED us. He has the rocks and stones, you know.

That's certainly new; pulling quotes from two totally different subject responses to pre-trib posts, and overlapping them with one another. If you really mean what you say, then why didn't you include some overlapped quotes from the pre-trib posts also, quoting both sides?

Pan is from the idea of 'pantheism', the Pan god. Its system believes that everything... is God, that God has no Personal Entity. So as a Christian, I wouldn't advise using that Pan label, not even with good intentions. Pantheism is one of the doctrines being pushed in many churches today by the 'brotherhood of mankind' reasoning, the idea that there are many paths to the same God. We each must decide whether we will make a stand for Christ, or not. There is no middle road, which is what 'pan' represents.

Do you believe God likes disipline?

I assure you He does, for that's the word from which 'disciple' comes from. The problem is our people are lazy. They don't like discipline. Many of them even associate that word discipline with punishment, or tyrants, because of how the enemy has propagandized the term. Discipline merely means training oneself, for work, for study, etc. Without it none of Christ's servants will become the kind of servants He wants. Christ has a Plan, and it involves His servants. It involves putting the Gospel Armor on for these last days to make a stand against His enemies, even to the death if needs be.

There's no room for the lukewarm who think they can take the easy way out of escape.

1Thes 5:3

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

Umm... you know, it was just a pun (as it happens, one of my favorites). Most people's reaction would have been .

[Celt]

I stand corrected on the author of the Left-Behind series, it is Tim LaHaye. Don't know why I had Hagee in mind. As for the "Pan-Trib" idea, I still stand by what I said, because that idea was put across like a middle-of-the-road type idea, like waiting to make a decision until it really happens instead of making a stand to be either pre-trib or post-trib now.

As for documenting the origin of the "secret rapture" idea, it had more than one author, as many movements like that usually do. The Irving church was preaching it before Darby got on board, but Darby is the one who came up with the label "secret rapture" for it.

[MorningGlory]

I stand corrected on the author of the Left-Behind series, it is Tim LaHaye. Don't know why I had Hagee in mind. As for the "Pan-Trib" idea, I still stand by what I said, because that idea was put across like a middle-of-the-road type idea, like waiting to make a decision until it really happens instead of making a stand to be either pre-trib or post-trib now.

As for documenting the origin of the "secret rapture" idea, it had more than one author, as many movements like that usually do. The Irving church was preaching it before Darby got on board, but Darby is the one who came up with the label "secret rapture" for it.

Come to think of it, I posted that 'Jerry LaHaye' wrote the Left behind series.....I was wrong too (and I've read the entire series!). It IS Tim LaHaye, along with Jerry Jenkins who wrote that series.

[Rick-Parker]

I knew that I was just kidding. But on a serious note many that believe the pretrib rapture are good christians that hope with their hearts instead of trusting God's word or that just accept the teachings of their pastor. I cannot blame them for trusting their pastors. It is the pastor that is supposed to be leading the sheep into truth and instead are leading them astray that need to be worried about given an answer toward God for their deceptions.

Welcome, ezekiel33!

You're welcome here even if you ARE wrong!

Thank you for welcoming me, but I was curious about what you thought I was wrong about. That pretribers are not unsaved or the pastors should be teaching biblical truths instead of unbiblical, nice sounding fairy teals?

I think it was meant as a funny

[truthbringer]

Yes I can provide scripture,

Ephians 5: 27.

[The oringinal Greek meaning is, "A Church doing outstanding miracles & mighty works of power, One just like Jesus"].

1 John 3: 2. Says it all.

Ephesians 5:27 (King James Version)

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 John 3:2 (King James Version)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This is what the Word tells us. Not even close to what you say. The church is a lukewarm church (Revelation 3:14-22) and many will fall away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). There will be no latter day rain as many hope for.

I cannot believe that you have just quoted scipture and dont believe what they say, Look at the Bible through the eyes of Holy Ghost and lean not to your own understanding.

You reject the Bible's teaching and the original Greek, and replace them with your own thoughts

[truthbringer]

OK, can you give me the scriptures that show that the rapture is b4 the tribulation?

The point was not the scripture. Any one of us can post scripture for the rest of the evening saying that it supports a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture or even a no rapture position and someone else is just going to say "no, it doesn't mean that." There are all kinds of threads on this board for every conceivable end-times position, with plenty of scripture in them. My point is it is meaningless to say the position is "unbiblical." That's false. It's your personal opinion, not a given fact, since you cannot say with 100% certainty that you are correct. Some doctrinal subjects are black and white. This isn't one of them. The fact that people think they have superior knowledge and they could not possibly be wrong is why we have people running around telling other people if they do not believe in their end times scenario, that they are heretics, teaching satanic lies, not saved, stupid, you name it. And supposedly standing on Christian values while they do it. It's called hypocrisy. At best, all anyone can do is say that personally, they feel the other person is incorrect, and that's as far as it can or should ever go. But everyone, myself included sometimes, want to defend our position so strenuously that we step way over the line when it comes to acceptable Christian behavior. Shame on us.

First i want to say I have no superior knowledge I have nothing more available to me than the rest of us. But I can say 2 things #1 It is about the scripture there is not one scripture in all of the Bible that supports the pretrib theory therefore the theory is indeed unbiblical and #2 Yes I can say that with 100% assurance. Not because I am smarter or more skilled at interpreting scripture than the next guy. It is because I believe what I read. When the Bible says Jesus returns after the tribulation I believe it, when the Bible says that those that endure until the end will be the ones that are saved I believe it, when the Bible says that the 2nd coming or the rapture cannot happen until after the anti christ is revealed I believe it, when the Bible says the resurrection of the just is at the 2nd coming of Christ I believe it, when the Bible says that the rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ immediately following the resurrection of the just I believe it, When Jesus says He is not removing us until He returns to destroy the wicked with fire I believe him. You see it is not about the correct interpretation it is just about believing what the word says.

[1] Give me scripture that say that the Church goes through the tribulation.

I dont mean the [A]Backsliders, The Jews[The Elect] or [C] The Gentiles.

[2]We shouldn't have our own opinion, Stick to what the Bible says, [Not your view on the subject]

[3] You keep saying "I believe", Its not what you believe, Its not what I believe, its not what anyone else believes or thinks.

It is geting the revelation of what the Bible says, and teaching it that counts.

[4] To say that there isn't any Biblical evidence to support the pre-trib rapture showa just how ignorent of the Bible people are.

[Celt]

But we are all still stupid, lazy, un-disciplined and un-saved, right? It's hard to keep score, since there are so many things to add up, so I just want to make sure I am on the right track. . .

No, I didn't call anyone stupid or unsaved, but many of our people are lazy and undisciplined when it comes to Bible study for theirselves. I'm being honest about that, and continually experience it with fellow believers that would rather rely on their Church's pastor teaching organizational doctrine per their denomination, or some new book they got at the local Christian bookstore. The fact that some Churches would use the Left-Behind series books and organizational quarterlies to teach from in Church also shows it.

I even had an experience of it today with a fellow-believer who's really sharp minded. Most of what we discussed from The Bible he showed a fair understanding in. And when I asked him if he had a Bible study period at home for himself he said no, but that he only listens to the pastor at his Church. He's pre-trib, but he was not able to really trust the Scriptures I covered with him, simply because he had not checked it out in The Bible for himself.

His credibility was that he wouldn't agree or disagree because he hadn't really checked it out for himself in The Bible. That shows he was not simply willing to disagree only based on what his pastor or Church organization taught. That's wise, and he said he was going to check out those things we covered in the morning.