When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[nebula]

So in the last days, when that great tribulation by the wicked comes (and we're very close today), He expects His servants to remain steadfast in Him, being spiritually strong in the Faith, staying prepared to make a stand for Him like a child of God, like a spiritual warrior in Christ Jesus. And most of all, He expects His to be patient and wait for His judgment upon the wicked that will occur after the tribulation.

And this is why it is more important for us to keep our eyes on Jesus, to look for the moving of His hand, rather than looking for the Anti-Christ. There's been enough anti-Christ's throughout history to make "real vs. face" comparisons. It's like the old standard for bank employees - they don't learn to recognize fakes by studying the fakes; they learn the real so well that any deviation sticks out like a sore thumb.

All we need is to know Jesus, to know what He is like, and to know His ways . . . and to know that when He returns it will be very dramatic. So spotting the Ultimate fake shouldn't be any different from spotting any other fake.

And serving our Lord during the Great Tribulation shouldn't be any different from any other Believers who have had to go through times of hardship and persecution. Sure, during those times the encouragement to endure is helpful. But going through the Tribulation should not be a matter of "surviving" but a matter of "living" - living for the Lord, doing His work, following His ways, doing all those things we should be doing every day even now.

And while you are pointing to the word given the Assembly (Church) of Philadelphia, don't forget the words spoken to the other Assemblies (Churches). For other churches were commended for their faithfulness to Him - but they had sin in their midst they needed to deal with (forsaking their first love, compromising with sinful behavior, etc.).

Don't forsake your First Love.

[Bold Believer]

I understand that when Christ come on His white horse (Rev. 19 He will come with a two-edge sword, He wears many crowns, His robe has blood on it and the horse and rider in Rev. 6 only has one crown and only has a bow, how are they the same and how are they both Christ?

That's a good question Mizz, one I had problems with in my early days as a Believer since most end-times teaching is futurist (be it pre,mid or post trib). Remember that Christ was meek and lowly, Prince Moschiach (Daniel). He came to overcome sin and death, but he became King Messiah along the way through obedience. He was exalted through the resurrection and became the King to whom all authority in heaven and earth was given (Mt 28), so that by the time the Days of Vengeance were exacted, we see Him not as Prince Messiah but King Messiah, triumphantly leading his armies both earthly (the Romans) and heavenly (the saints). The language of Rev 19 is metaphoric, but describing Christ's victory over both faithless apostate Israel and pagan Rome (which was defeated in the ten toes later down the road, per Daniel). King Messiah is firmly establishing His Reign in both heaven AND earth in Rev 19. Notice the last thing that occurs is that Satan is bound and the Gospel goes forth. The world benefitted immensely from Christian rule, far more than it ever 'suffered', although when unrighteous people wormed their way into the Church, bad things did occur.

Thanks for the reply. I must admit I don't follow the logic as I am not a preterist in my thinking. I do believe Christ when He comes again will come back with that two edged sword. I have to admit you are the first person who I haave ever heard that Christ's earthly army was the Romans. Also I understand where some of language in Rev. could be considered metaphoric by some I don't see it that way myself. Also I just don't see satan as having already been bound. I'd like to know how I missed the millenial reign and perhaps like many others, I suspect, might think if this is the Kingdom of God now its more than a bit messed up.

God uses whatever He pleases to accomplish his work. In AD 70, it was Pagan Imperial Rome. He used them just as He used the heathen in the past to chasten Israel.

The binding of Satan is actually very specific. He is bound to keep the nations from being deceived. He is not bound for any other purpose. The gospel was preached to the whole world and is preached to our whole world to this day. You didn't MISS the Reign of Christ...you are a part of it. Just as every other Believer in the world by their very presence.

The Millennium was the Gospel going to the nations. The world knows now. They have no excuse to fall for what is coming. Christ reigned through his people. There is no doubt that the world benefitted from Christ reign. Education, literature, music, architecture, law, great inventions, even the way wars were fought (mercy to prisoners, women and children) all came about through Christianity's influence on the world.

Remember, the Kingdom of God is within us, not outside. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. So when Believers teach and preach Christ and people get saved, they take that influence with them and it causes good wherever it goes. That's why Believers need to be in every aspect of life. There is no sacred/secular distinction. A teacher is no less sacred than a firefighter, a cop or for that matter a musician. A politician is not dirty because he's called to politics, he's dirty because he's a unrepentant sinner who refuses to believe the Gospel. Get enough of EITHER Believers or godless people together, they cause influence.

So instead of worrying about a Tribulation long past, shouldn't we be doing what Christ told us, taking the Gospel to the world?

Even so, Gog and Magog are on the march now; the Parousia is near. My personal opinion is that the LORD will come within the next hundred years or so. I could be wrong, but based on what I am seeing, with the knowledge explosion in the world and man already thinking of himself as God, it will most likely not be long.

While Revelation, and all throughout God's Word contains certain metaphors, it's still about 'literal' events. God uses metaphors or allegories as teaching tools, to make His literal Messages easier to understand.

Christ's second coming to the earth in Person will be a literal event. It will not be a metaphorical event, and none of the early Church fathers held to His second coming as just a metaphor.

Rev.5 and 20 shows Christ and His servants as kings and priests reigning on the earth, literally, when Satan is bound for a thousand years. And then after the thousand years, Satan is loosed to deceive the nations one more time into coming up against where? The "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" (Rev.20:9). That camp and beloved city is on the earth per the Rev.20 example.

So for the "thousand years" reign to be in effect right now, Christ must be here on earth in Person, ruling over the nations with a rod of iron, and with His elect at that "camp of the saints" and "beloved city". Only an imagination way out in left field could think that event is happenning now. So it's quite easy to know such an idea is a doctrine of men, and not of God.

The Second Coming is VERY literal. It will be in flaming fire. See II Peter. Nothing but Believers will survive it.

[Massorite]

... The whole purpose for all that has happened since the fall is to undo what was done back then. Can God just snap His finger and undo what was done? Yes but that is not how God has chosen to deal with the problem. He has chosen to deal with the problem just as He has done so far.

I believe that the purpose for the tribulation is to weed out those who are not who they say they are. . . .

So it sounds like you are saying the purpose of the Great Tribulation is purification.

God always has His reasons for doing what He does. The early church was persecuted with great tribulation off and on for about 250 years and when Christan's ran away from the persecutions that is how the Gospel was spread through out the known world. . . . Trust me or no. But I tell you for a fact that during the coming great tribulation there will be a Great Revival smack dab in the middle of that great tribulation period.

Oh, I believe that!

But will this revival come by us looking at the Evil One or looking to the Holy One?

God does not instigate a great tribulation He simply lets satan do it because satan wants to p[persecute the people of God.

If God does not instigate it, what's going on with the seals and the trumpets and the bowls?

Yes you are exactly correct. Book of Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified and made white and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand but the wise shall understand". I believe that the wise spoken of here are those who have studied, understood, and are prepared to endure to the end because thanks to the word of God they saw it coming and will know what it is when it gets here. The word "tried" in this verse is speaking of trials, being tested, tribulations, and so on.

For me personally just as soon as I see and know who the antichrist is I will then turn my attention to what is to be the next prophecy to be fulfilled and that will be the return of Christ. But I won't be praying that Christ will come soon because I already know that there is a process to go through. However I will be praying that Christ will give me more faith, and strength, and patience to endure to the end. The word of God says that we should count tribulations with joy and I do. Even though I might not be as prepared as I think I am for a great period of tribulation I am still looking forward to it.

I only look for the evil one because I know he is coming but my face is always turned to Christ. He is my life and the evil one is just a side bar that must happen according to what my Lord and Saviour has told me.

[jesta]

It's because of our Lord's Olivet Discourse...

Matt 24:21-24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(KJV)

The phrase "false Christs" is the single word 'pseudochristos' in the Greek, and means 'a pseudo Christ'. To our day, there has never been a false Christ to work the "great signs and wonders" on such a level that would almost deceive His "very elect". It's about one coming to do miracles on the earth so powerful, it will cause the majority to be fooled into thinking that pseudo Christ is God (2 Thess.2, what the "strong delusion" is about). Our Lord Jesus connected that event with that "great tribulation" timing.

God allows that, and Christ's servants are not to fear it, but to make a stand for Him prepared with the Gospel armour (Eph.6).

So, do you read Revelation as "the revelation of the Anti-Christ" rather than "the revelation of Jesus Christ"?

no nebula i dont i see it as the revelation of Jesus christ the saving one but when you do read revelation it is very discriptive of how the anti christ will operate we need to know this so as to gain understanding and also God revealed it to all who will beleive so they arnt decieved it simply reveals both but more to the glory of our coming Lord jesus Christ

[Celt]

And this is why it is more important for us to keep our eyes on Jesus, to look for the moving of His hand, rather than looking for the Anti-Christ. There's been enough anti-Christ's throughout history to make "real vs. face" comparisons. It's like the old standard for bank employees - they don't learn to recognize fakes by studying the fakes; they learn the real so well that any deviation sticks out like a sore thumb.

All we need is to know Jesus, to know what He is like, and to know His ways . . . and to know that when He returns it will be very dramatic. So spotting the Ultimate fake shouldn't be any different from spotting any other fake.

And serving our Lord during the Great Tribulation shouldn't be any different from any other Believers who have had to go through times of hardship and persecution. Sure, during those times the encouragement to endure is helpful. But going through the Tribulation should not be a matter of "surviving" but a matter of "living" - living for the Lord, doing His work, following His ways, doing all those things we should be doing every day even now.

And while you are pointing to the word given the Assembly (Church) of Philadelphia, don't forget the words spoken to the other Assemblies (Churches). For other churches were commended for their faithfulness to Him - but they had sin in their midst they needed to deal with (forsaking their first love, compromising with sinful behavior, etc.).

Don't forsake your First Love.

I'm sorry, I think you're simply confused about all this. Heeding our Lord's command to watch in the last days cannot in any way be equated with leaving our First Love (Christ). Instead, to heed His warnings is to remain focused on Him and His Word.

You said, "All we need is to know Jesus, to know what He is like, and to know His ways . . . and to know that when He returns it will be very dramatic. So spotting the Ultimate fake shouldn't be any different from spotting any other fake."

That's just it, the coming false messiah is to be a very dramatic event also, and is why Christ gave us a warning about it, and a symbol of the conquerer on the white horse of the first seal mimicking the way He returns on a white horse in Rev.19. But I guess you wouldn't know about that since you appear to want to leave off those kind of things written in His Word.

Just because believers get together and talk about the end times and the coming of antichrist per Scripture, it does NOT mean they are any less focused on their Savior Jesus Christ. To say they aren't focused on Christ because of heeding His warnings in His Word is a totally unfounded assumption on your part. You have no Biblical foundation in that assumption. If you learned such ideas from your Church pastor or from seminary, they are clearly wrong too. It seems you're not interested in focusing on the Scriptures about Christ's warnings for the last days, and that's OK, for you. But it is not something you can admonish other believers to leave off (not even those in your own congregation), especially when our Lord Jesus commanded us to heed His warnings on those end time events.

The danger you face is in not being prepared to understand how the false messiah comes in per God's Word. And because of that you are already prepared to be deceived by the first one that appears on earth doing supernatural works and claiming to be Christ. Antichrist's coming is not going to be like any other past fakes that have claimed to be Christ, for none of the others have worked the great wonders and signs our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught the false messiah will work. That's the difference.

Concerning the seven Churches in Revelation. Christ did not mention the matter of the "synagogue of Satan" to any of the other five Churches, the five that He had a rebuke for. So are you trying to say those at Smyrna and Philadelphia didn't understand about Christ's enemies and didn't have to heed His warning to stay on watch?

Christ's mention of the "synagogue of Satan" to only those two showed they were very aware of the enemy, and that's why Smyrna was so persecuted, and also the result of Philadelphia keeping the word of His patience to know about it (i.e., staying in all of His Word). Do you think the other five had problems because they didn't care to understand about the "synagogue of Satan"? Yes, you bet 'cha. Some are too busy playing religion, following Christ THEIR way, and not His Way.

I'm guessing that your are Pre-Trib, because most of the pre-trib folks I've met think it's a waste of time to discern Christ's enemies, and be watching the end time events leading up to His return. Per our Lord Jesus in Matt.25, the group of five foolish virgins that only had the oil in their lamps, and not a spare vessel of oil, He will close the door on at His return.

[Celt]

Book of Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified and made white and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand but the wise shall understand". I believe that the wise spoken of here are those who have studied, understood, and are prepared to endure to the end because thanks to the word of God they saw it coming and will know what it is when it gets here. The word "tried" in this verse is speaking of trials, being tested, tribulations, and so on.

For me personally just as soon as I see and know who the antichrist is I will then turn my attention to what is to be the next prophecy to be fulfilled and that will be the return of Christ. But I won't be praying that Christ will come soon because I already know that there is a process to go through. However I will be praying that Christ will give me more faith, and strength, and patience to endure to the end. The word of God says that we should count tribulations with joy and I do. Even though I might not be as prepared as I think I am for a great period of tribulation I am still looking forward to it.

I only look for the evil one because I know he is coming but my face is always turned to Christ. He is my life and the evil one is just a side bar that must happen according to what my Lord and Saviour has told me.

That's exactly it. Our Lord doesn't want a bunch of weak powder-puffs who shrink at the appearance of His enemies. He wants His servants to stand up as one of His children and show their Faith on Him! We are not to even be concerned if that stand means being delivered up to death. Don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, and after that there's nothing more they can do, but fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (Matt.10:28). If talking about the end times or the coming false messiah scares some of our brethren, it's because they are not listening to Christ in His Word, but instead to the doctrines of His enemies and the comforts of this world. Going that way means to lose one's saltiness for Christ.

Will those who 'fall away' to the false messiah like the apostle Paul taught in 2 Thess.2., be subject to tribulation? Yes, but a different kind, spiritual tribulation. The word 'tribulation' does not always mean a physical persecution...

Dan 7:25

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

(KJV)

The phrase "shall wear out" is the Aramaic word 'bela', and means a constant harassment like how a garment becomes old through constant wear. It can even be in the mental sense like Dr. James Strong suggested.

That wearing out of the saints is especially during the coming tribulation, because in Daniel it's linked with the changing of times and the Law. The word "times" applies to an appointed occasion, a season, something fixed in time.

That event of Dan.7:25 is about the "little horn" king that arises out of the ten horns, and subdues three of the ten. That's about false messiah, or antichrist if you will. How does that idea of changing a certain season, or a fixed appointed time or occasion apply to that false one?

In our Lord's Olivet Discourse (Mark 13), He is describing the seven seals of Revelation 6. Anyone that has studied our Lord's Book of Revelation easily understands there's a certain order of events to occur that lead up to Christ's second coming. And, that those things must happen before His coming. By that we know the time of Christ's coming is an appointed time or occasion that no man can change, even though none of us know the day or hour of His coming.

But with the appearance of false messiah before Christ's coming, that is an attempt to change the appointed time of Christ's coming, by trying to put himself in Christ's place. Our Lord Jesus taught this idea in His Olivet Discourse also, when mentioning about the "untimely figs". In fig horticulture, an early fig grows in the winter but falls off in the spring, not fit for anything. In the parable of the fig tree, our Lord linked the season of summer as a symbol to the time of His coming. So in more ways than one our Lord was telling us of a false one that is to come, that will be too early, symbolic of winter, and not at the proper season of His coming which He used the summer harvest time as a symbol. Our Lord linked several symbols of agriculture to latter day events, and that is one of them. That's why He said this in His Olivet Discourse...

Mark 13:18

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

(KJV)

That's in relation to the sixth seal event...

Rev 6:12-13

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

(KJV)

Some aren't aware that there's to be a great earthquake and signs in the heavens associated with the sixth seal event, which is about the stars being cast down to the earth like the untimely or winter fig (Rev.12:7-9 about Satan and his angels being cast to the earth). That's also linked with the sixth trumpet, second woe event, when the four angels at the river Euphrates loose that great army of Rev.9 upon the earth. Christ's coming is later, on the seven trumpet and third woe events, and a great earthquake the likes that has never been is to occur.

So paying attention to these details in God's Word gives His children more assurance to make ready a stand for Christ against the false one, because by those details we can know the ORDER of events that are to take place. And, we can see how false messiah is trying mimic Christ's coming, and trying to change the appointed time. Our Lord showed us this so we'd be prepared in Him to make a stand, and not be deceived and taken in 'winter' by the "untimely figs".

[alex73]

Rapture.?????

If we are God's army with Spiritual armour individually made for us.

& if we are practised in their use, if God is the captain of our salvation etc etc etc

Why should we want to be ''raptured'' to where or preparation is not needed. ???

On this earth is where the battle is each & every day.

[givennewname]

Rapture.?????

If we are God's army with Spiritual armour individually made for us.

& if we are practised in their use, if God is the captain of our salvation etc etc etc

Why should we want to be ''raptured'' to where or preparation is not needed. ???

On this earth is where the battle is each & every day.

Wow.. Here a man that likes persecution and God's wrath...

[Shiloh62]

God has not opened my understanding on this subject clear enough to give an answer, so I do not. Instead, I see it important to be ready at all times. God has not promised me that I will be here for the rapture.

Dear OneLight, the best part of what you said was "I see it important to be ready at all times." FresnoJoe said very much the same thing; "Come Quickly LORD Jesus, Come Quickly."

One of my previous pastors said "We are not told the exact day the Lord is going to come, but we should live every day as if He were going to come today." And that is so true.

Thanks in the name of Jesus - larry2

Amen, Larry. No one knows except Godthe appointed time, so we should always be ready.

[nebula]

So, do you read Revelation as "the revelation of the Anti-Christ" rather than "the revelation of Jesus Christ"?

no nebula i dont i see it as the revelation of Jesus christ the saving one but when you do read revelation it is very discriptive of how the anti christ will operate we need to know this so as to gain understanding and also God revealed it to all who will beleive so they arnt decieved it simply reveals both but more to the glory of our coming Lord jesus Christ

If Revelation is not the revelation of Jesus Christ, then why does the book start by declaring:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 1:1)