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Larry 2

When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

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Quoting OneLight - Larry2, is Brother Hawkins Clair Hawkins, one of the founders of Working Partners? OneLight -

Answer by larry2 - No he is not - He is the pastor of Gospel Fellowship and teaches Grace and Glory college in Grandview, MO.

Thanks for asking in Jesus' name - larry2

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Larry2, is Brother Hawkins Clair Hawkins, one of the founders of Working Partners?

No he is not - He is the pastor of Gospel Fellowship and teaches Grace and Glory college in Grandview, MO.

Thanks for asking in Jesus' name - larry2

Thanks for clarifying.

OneLight

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Dear BlindSeeker, I'm sorry I forgot to address this earlier but will attempt to now.

Quoting BlindSeeker - Can you prove any Hebrew distinction between "Prince" in verse 25 and "prince in verse 26?

Answer by larry2 - No I can't prove anything to you in this because the same Strong's concordance interpretation is given for each prince. But then when we read of "God" or "god" in the New testament we run into the same problem. They are the same word according to Strong's but somehow those interpreting scripture found the correct translation. I am not a Hebrew interpreter and would appreciate anyone having knowledge of this to give us your thoughts on it.

Thanks all in Jesus' name - larry2

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Dear BlindSeeker, I'm sorry I forgot to address this earlier but will attempt to now.

Quoting BlindSeeker - Can you prove any Hebrew distinction between "Prince" in verse 25 and "prince in verse 26?

Answer by larry2 - No I can't prove anything to you in this because the same Strong's concordance interpretation is given for each prince. But then when we read of "God" or "god" in the New testament we run into the same problem. They are the same word according to Strong's but somehow those interpreting scripture found the correct translation. I am not a Hebrew interpreter and would appreciate anyone having knowledge of this to give us your thoughts on it.

Thanks all in Jesus' name - larry2

But we are not dealing with the entirety of the NT, we are dealing with Daniel 9:25 and 9:26.

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Quoting BlindSeeker - Can you prove any Hebrew distinction between "Prince" in verse 25 and "prince in verse 26?

Answer by larry2 - No I can't prove anything to you in this because the same Strong's concordance interpretation is given for each prince. But then when we read of "God" or "god" in the New testament we run into the same problem. They are the same word according to Strong's but somehow those interpreting scripture found the correct translation. I am not a Hebrew interpreter and would appreciate anyone having knowledge of this to give us your thoughts on it.

Quoting BlindSeeker - But we are not dealing with the entirety of the NT, we are dealing with Daniel 9:25 and 9:26.

Answer by larry2 - Dear Blindseeker, I have no idea your point here other than trying to disprove common sentence structure where The "And" at the beginning of Daniel 9:27 links the "he" of in this verse to the last prince mentioned in Daniel 9:26. You don't seem to like the fact of using the same word God, and god that are used with upper and lower case letters dependent upon the interpreter's knowledge of the context or expertise in knowing where to use them depending whether they are talking about God, or someone that thinks they are a god.

Since you state we're not talking about the entire New Testament, how about the following examples in the Old Testament. Take a look at them and notice they're also written with upper and lower case letters denoting one as The Prince of Peace with the upper case letters, and the second as a quite prince with lower case letters. Do you believe these two separate verses below were also both talking of the Lord Jesus?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jeremiah 51:59. The word which Jeremiah the prophet commanded Seraiah the son of Neriah, the son of Maaseiah, when he went with Zedekiah the king of Judah into Babylon in the fourth year of his reign. And this Seraiah was a quiet prince.

Both these verses above use the same Strong's word "08269 rs sar sar" meaning AV-prince 208, captain 130, chief 33, ruler 33, governor 6, keeper 3, principal 2, general 1, lords 1, misc 4; 421. --- And yet I hope you can agree Isaiah and Jeremiah are not both talking about Jesus as you try to do with Daniel 9:25-26 with the two princes there and shown below.

Daniel 9:25-26. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Both princes above have the same Strong's meaning and yet they are interpreted as one being The Prince and the other a prince. Below they use the same Strong's word:

05057 dygn nagiyd naw-gheed'or dgn nagid naw-gheed'

from 05046; TWOT-1289b; n m

AV-ruler 20, prince 9, captain 6, leader 4, governor 3, nobles 1, excellent things 1; 44

Again I do not know how these words are determined to reflect the difference, but I know the interpreters did and until proven wrong that's good enough for me. At this time I will add that unless you come up with scriptural proof that your theories of whatever you believe are factual and not supposition that we're somehow in the time of the tribulation I think you're trying to say, I feel no need of putting countless hours and effort in trying to prove anything to you, and yet I am sorry to feel that way. Hopefully we can have some agreeable discourse in these things. To me it becomes like trying to prove God to someone saying show me, show me, and show me; there is nothing to be gained.

Well may we do all things in love in Jesus' name - larry2

Edited by Larry 2

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I have asked this question in replies in other threads to no avail, but to know how someone interprets Revelation in its different events determines their stance on the rapture of the Church; pre, mid, or post tribulation.

To make sure you understand what I am asking, when does the seven years of tribulation start according to scripture. Please give scriptures or explanations of events with scripture to substantiate your views.

Just the facts folk and no arguments - We be brethren :noidea:

Thanks to all in Jesus' name - larry2

When the abomination that desolates is revealed..

Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

Mat 24:17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house:

Mat 24:18 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.

Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

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Larry 2,

I interpret those Daniel passages the same, and understand about a final "one week" that is to complete the prophecy. There's a curve though with the idea of a literal 7 years period, because of what our Lord said...

Matt 24:21-23

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

(KJV)

That time of great tribulation is to be shortened for the sake of Christ's elect, so what's it shortened to? There's the problem. I believe the events in Daniel will still occur like you say, but not so sure it will still be a literal 1260 days (3 and 1/2 years).

I am presently leaning towards a shortened period of five months. That's the actual time of the symbolic 'stinging' by the locust army of Rev.9 upon those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

There's also this symbolic flood reference in the prophecy...

Dan 9:26

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(KJV)

Dan 11:21-23

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

(KJV)

Rev 12:15-17

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(KJV)

God used that idea of the enemy coming in as a flood in several Old Testament examples. In Rev.12 example, it comes out of the 'mouth'... of the dragon, pointing to lies to deceive with. We are told in Rev.9 that the locusts also will cast fire and brimstone out of their 'mouths', and that their power is in their mouth and their tails, meaning the power to deceive those not sealed by God.

On the 2nd woe and 6th trumpet, the four angels bound at the river Euphrates prepared for a certain hour, day, month, and year to slay a third of men are loosed. God's "two witnesses" are also killed by the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit within that 2nd woe - 6th trumpet timing. So I believe that's when the tribulation will begin. Where that falls within the "one week" Daniel prophecy, I don't know, mainly because of that shortened time Christ said.

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What do you subscribe to? edit: no judgment, just curious.

I believe that all who would live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and tribulation.

The "seven year" theory is based upon what I believe to be a misinterpretation of Daniel's prophesy. I have yet to read anything with clarity that utilizes other passages to adequately support this widely accepted assumption.

Thanks

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Quoting givennewname - When the abomination of desolation is revealed.

Mat 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Mat 24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

Mat 24:17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house:

Mat 24:18 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak.

Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

-------------------------------------

Answer by larry2 - Dear Givennewname, this to me is also a part of the tribulation starting the last 3 1/2 years and we find this part of the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." But to establish a time line when many of these things happen we must determine the time of the taking away of the daily sacrifice. We read in Daniel 12:11. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." In this verse we have the sacrifice taken away and the abomination of desolation set up 1290 days later which is the middle of the week of seven years. There is much speculation as to when Israel will begin its daily sacrifices again, but when you see that coming to pass, know the time is at our very door. Be ready.

Thanks givennewname in the name of Jesus - larry2

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Larry 2,

Quoting Celt - Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That time of great tribulation is to be shortened for the sake of Christ's elect, so what's it shortened to? There's the problem. I believe the events in Daniel will still occur like you say, but not so sure it will still be a literal 1260 days (3 and 1/2 years). I am presently leaning towards a shortened period of five months. That's the actual time of the symbolic 'stinging' by the locust army of Rev.9 upon those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Responswe by larry2 - Great answer Celt. Very seldom I find any that realize this shorting of the second half of the tribulation necessitates realignment in our thinking of the second 1260 days of the tribulation. This is an abbreviated answer to your question which I plan on going more in depth later, but it is shortened 250 days because we have to consider Daniel 8:11-14 in the equation.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Now since there are 2300 days from the sacrifice being taken away, and the sacrifice being taken aways occurs 30 days prior to the seven years of tribulation which takes in consideration the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This 1290 days are until the middle of the week. So the total days add up to 2550 days minus the 30 days prior to the tribulation equals 2520 days or the two halves of the tribulation. But then again taking into account the 2300 days starting from the time the sacrifice is taken away leaves us at a point 250 days prior to the end of the 2520 days. WOW - And then it gets deeper.

Thanks Celt, I will address the rest of your thread on another reply - God bless in Jesus' name - larry2

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