Is a belief in the Trinity Doctrine neccessary for salvation?

[Larry 2]

Quoting shiloh357 - If a person is truly born again ......

Question - What has one done to be born again, or born of God, or is there another status of truly born again in your opinion? I believe you're referring to one that has grown in grace and knowledge of our Lord, but I no longer know for sure here. Thanks

[Guest shiloh357]

Quoting shiloh357 - If a person is truly born again ......

Question - What has one done to be born again, or born of God, or is there another status of truly born again in your opinion? I believe you're referring to one that has grown in grace and knowledge of our Lord, but I no longer know for sure here. Thanks

My point is that if you are truly born again (as opposed to those who think that simply showing up for church makes them a Christian), then none of those essential defining elements of the Christian faith, which smiles posted will pose any sort of problem for you.

God does not expect us to know everything in order to get saved, but He does expect us to grow in our knowledge and understanding of teachings of Scripture.

There are certain doctrines that define the Christian faith. There are certain truths borne out in the Scripture, which simply cannot be compromised. The Trinity is one of those doctrines. None of understands it fully, and we are not meant to yet, but I believe it even if I don't fully understand it.

I don't full understand excatly how turning my key makes my car start, but that does serve as an impediment to drivng it. I don't have to understand God or makes sense out of Him and He does not ask me to do that. All he asks is that I trust Him, and that is what I do.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (~smiles~ @ Sep 12 2008, 08:14 PM)

Do you have to know of, understand, and believe in the Trinity to repent and be saved? No. I can't think of any Gospel presentation that clearly teaches the Trinity;for they are focusing on Christ's work, repentance, belief...

BUT.

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the Trinity.

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the virgin birth

You cannot be a Christian without believing Jesus is God

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the physical Resurrection of Christ

You cannot be a Christian without believing that it is grace that saves

etc...

The Trinity is a key orthodox belief and no true Christian will deny it.

I don't agree fully with this. One thing is: if a person accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior without understanding all these things, but then are taught these things and disbelieve some of them, are they no longer saved?

No, because smiles was not saying that salvation is based understanding these things. Paul, in Romans 10, states for example that belief that God raised Jesus from the dead IS something you MUST believe in order to be saved. You may not UNDERSTAND it, but that is different than believing it.

The things listed above are essential, primary defining elements of the Christian faith, and if one is a true Christian, those things will not create a problem or crisis of belief.

Her point is that no true Christian will deny any of those things including the Trinity. We have too many people who are trying to be Christians in a manner that allows them to define their Christianity. They want to come to Jesus, but on their terms, and it doesn't work that way.

If a person claims to be a Christian, but has a problem with Jesus being God, or denies the virgin birth, and rejects the inerrancy of Bible with regard to those basic teachings, then they need to reexamine the authenticy of their profession of faith. They need to examine whether their salvation experience when they asked Jesus into their heart was genuine or not.

To say you don't have to believe them before, but you have to believe them after, seems to go against the whole concept of what salvation is: grace

Not at all. Grace is not, "have it your way." The point is that if you truly saved, you will grow into those beliefs.

Am I saved by the grace of God and accepting Him, or am I saved by holding to certain tenents Christianity has come to say I must?

Rejecting the basic doctrines of the Bible may be a litmus test as to the authenticity of one's profession of faith. There is not one item smiles listed above that is controversial or nonessential and should be the foundational believe of every Christian.

To say one "cannot be a Christian without believing" anything beyond Christ's redemptive work on the cross is tantamount to adding to that work for our salvation.

Nothing smiles presented goes beyond that parameter, in fact, even believing in the Trinity touches on the redemptive work.

I think we have complicated salvation way more than God intended for it to be. Are we not again putting the yoke of bondage on people in telling them they "must" believe above and beyond what the Bible calls for for salvation? No two people on earth grow in their Christian faith at the same pace. I think it's dangerous to call people's Christianity into question when we don't know where they're at in their sanctification process.

That is not what smiles is talking about.

Smiles is talking about those who claim to be Christians, but persist in their denial of these doctrines. It is those so called, "Christians" who choose conintued rejection of these things, who consciously reject the deity of Jesus, His bodily reserrction, His virin birth, etc. who demonstrate that they were probably not Christians to begin with.

[Khristeeanos]

How does one become saved?

By believing in Jesus.

You need to have the correct Jesus to be saved - just look at the JW's and LDS'ers. They have a Jesus, but not the Jesus.

I voted yes - absolutely.

[Mudcat]

[Mudcat]

Do you have to know of, understand, and believe in the Trinity to repent and be saved? No. I can't think of any Gospel presentation that clearly teaches the Trinity;for they are focusing on Christ's work, repentance, belief...

BUT.

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the Trinity.

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the virgin birth

You cannot be a Christian without believing Jesus is God

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the physical Resurrection of Christ

You cannot be a Christian without believing that it is grace that saves

etc...

The Trinity is a key orthodox belief and no true Christian will deny it.

Hi Smiles,

I suppose I am having a little difficulty understanding what I perceive as dissonance in your statement. Emphasis mine.

You are saying that you can become a Christian without an understanding of the Trinity. However, you can't be a Christian without believing in the Trinity, because true Christians believe in the Trinity. Hopefully, that is a fair synopsis.

The only thing I can think of that brings your statement into harmony, would be that people who believe that they have answered a call unto repentance and salvation, must believe in the Trinity, if not before this answering of a call to salvation, then after. For such a person to believe some other posited relation of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost after the fact must somehow mean they were (A)never called or (B)called but not saved.... or I suppose, depending on your thoughts on security of the believer, perhaps a potential for C) fallen from Grace. Have I got that right?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited September 13, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Actually I was responding more towards this post than the actual person. I was simply restating what the person has said in previous post so that I could better explain my side of the discussion to Mudcat. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Thy misunderstandings are forgiven thee (at least by Mudcat)

Go and be confusing no more.

[OneLight]

With this train of thought, I have to ask, are you a Christian after accepting Jesus as your Savior if you are have not been taught about Grace, the Trinity, or any other part of scripture?

Am I a Christian? Yes, at least in my opinion. ...edit add, if you want to hear my testimony, I would be happy to share it here.

Do I believe I am I saved by Grace alone and Faith alone? Yes.

Do I believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct personalities but One God? Yes.

Do I believe in the infallibility of Scripture? Yes

Do I believe it is inerrant? No.

Have I read the Bible? Yes a number of times.

....edit add.

If you don't mind me asking. Why does this particular train of thought make you curious if someone is a Christian?

I should of included the statement that prompted my questions. Let me explain why I asked. A checklist was created of what a Christian should believe in order to considered a Christian ...

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the Trinity.

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the virgin birth

You cannot be a Christian without believing Jesus is God

You cannot be a Christian without believing in the physical Resurrection of Christ

You cannot be a Christian without believing that it is grace that saves

Even though I can go down the list and place a check mark beside each condition, I stopped and wondered if being a Christian is just a checklist of do and don't, beliefs and unbelief's, or is it the relationship with our Lord and Savior?

If it is a checklist, then we have forgotten the grace by which we are saved and have become legalistic once again. If it is a relationship, then a list should become perhaps a goal. The only list I have ever seen is in the OT where the law was created to show how sinful we are. I can't find one in the NT at all.

OneLight

[Mudcat]

How does one become saved?

By believing in Jesus.

You need to have the correct Jesus to be saved - just look at the JW's and LDS'ers. They have a Jesus, but not the Jesus.

I voted yes - absolutely.

Oh my.... I would think that would be quite a bold opinion, you have.

So salvation only comes to those who first believe in Trinity.

It sounds like you are saying a person can't be called unto salvation without a full understanding of the Trinity. Have I got that right?

Khristeeanos, am I missing something or does the Scripture spell that out?

If you have the right of it, it makes me wonder about just how genuine those little boys a girls that believe they want Jesus to save them and walk the isle during an altar call at my church are? Seems a young age to understand substances and subsistencies, what homousia means, or what the hypostatic union is.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Even though I can go down the list and place a check mark beside each condition, I stopped and wondered if being a Christian is just a checklist of do and don't, beliefs and unbelief's, or is it the relationship with our Lord and Savior?

If it is a checklist, then we have forgotten the grace by which we are saved and have become legalistic once again. If it is a relationship, then a list should become perhaps a goal. The only list I have ever seen is in the OT where the law was created to show how sinful we are. I can't find one in the NT at all.

OneLight

One Light,

Seems you and I may agree more than I had initially presumed.

That was well said, I especially liked how that list of beliefs might be better understood as a goal.

BTW and in regards to my confusing previous statement, somewhere else in the thread.

I was simply driving at the fact that we are called by the Holy Spirit to repentance and salvation through Christ.

The message of that repentance lays within the Bible. So two fold the Holy Spirit actually testifies... to the truth of Scripture and to the truth of Christ.

Though that list, is most definitely a product of Scripture...at least in my opinion. I believe there are some folks, who potentially don't have all the boxes checked, in spite of the fact they do have a relationship with their Savior, sometimes this may have more to do with where they first heard the Gospel, where their parents went to church, etc....

I suppose I would find it difficult to believe that man could setup a barrier of false doctrine, that the Holy Spirit can not penetrate.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Mudcat