Ray Boltz

[kross]

I have seen so many Christians with addictions that they can not kick.

God can heal anything.

All you have to do is ask and be willing.

Man, I have a hard time with your inability to grasp grace.

It's not that I don't grasp the meaning of grace, I just don't take the Word lightly.

I heed the Word, with all the blessings and warnings that go with it.

You have the gift of being able to get under my skin.

It's a gift. You're not the only one.

You should hear what my ex-wives have to say about me.

I hope JESUS is more forgiving towards you than you seem to be towards others Because if he is not, you will be judged with the same judgement you choose to judge. And your sins are many.

I would have to agree with you there.

[nebula]

I just do not see where that opens the door for people to stand in judgement of him. Yes, he is trapped in a sin. Yes, it is wrong and regrettable. Does this mean that we have some devine right to pass judgement on his eternal destiny? I do not think so. He is still in the potters hand to be made into whatever vessel the potter chooses.

There's a difference between throwing stones and calling a spade a spade.

As far as his destiny, it doesn't matter what any of us say or think. However, we do need to search the Scriptures and discern when sin has gone to far, lest we end up like King Saul. . . or like Ananias and Sapphira.

For someone to break his record because to her this knowledge tears at her heart and is to her as the sacrificing of a blemished animal is not standing in judgment as if she was his judge. It is, however, her form of intercession.

The Lord considers homosexuality an abomination. We can't just brush it aside into the same category as say "borrowing" a ream of paper from work.

Yes, he is still in the Potter's hands. However, loving someone doesn't mean we excuse or allow their sin. You know?

[kross]

Actually, it was a demon that was given to Paul to buffet him to keep him humble. We do not know whether it was a sin or and addiction he could not get delivered from or if it was a physical ailment.

What we do know is that GOD told him HE wouod not deliver him from it.

ANd as I have also stated, he likely struggled with it for decades and has chosen to stop struggling. If JESUS wants to deliver him, HE will.

Kross, your theory is unbiblical. I believe it is James that says, "Let no man, when he is tempted, say I am tempted of God. For God tempts no man..."

Therefore it would be impossible for Paul's thorn to be a demon, a sin, or an addiction.

So again your quote was out of context and still did not answer my questions either in that post or previously.

And again, your last statement is erroneous. There is no "if" about it. We will always sin because we are human, but as Christians we are free from the bondage of sin and Jesus Christ will free us from slavery to addictions.

Believe it or not, I do not make this stuff up.

2COR 12:7 "and lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure".

Not out of context. Very specific to the point. It may be that this is Ray's thorn.

Shrug. I dont see where it says it was a demon. You still really dont answer questions.

OK, your deffinition of a messenger of Satan would be what?

[kross]

I just do not see where that opens the door for people to stand in judgement of him. Yes, he is trapped in a sin. Yes, it is wrong and regrettable. Does this mean that we have some devine right to pass judgement on his eternal destiny? I do not think so. He is still in the potters hand to be made into whatever vessel the potter chooses.

There's a difference between throwing stones and calling a spade a spade.

As far as his destiny, it doesn't matter what any of us say or think. However, we do need to search the Scriptures and discern when sin has gone to far, lest we end up like King Saul. . . or like Ananias and Sapphira.

For someone to break his record because to her this knowledge tears at her heart and is to her as the sacrificing of a blemished animal is not standing in judgment as if she was his judge. It is, however, her form of intercession.

The Lord considers homosexuality an abomination. We can't just brush it aside into the same category as say "borrowing" a ream of paper from work.

Yes, he is still in the Potter's hands. However, loving someone doesn't mean we excuse or allow their sin. You know?

Yes, loving them means pointing out that sin is sin. Stealing the paper or being a homosexual is still breaking the commandments. Guilty of one, guilty of them all.

And it is actually a couple of posts past that when he was called to have walked away from GOD and was lost and whatever else it said.

Post #7

Edited September 15, 2008 by kross

[kross]

But kross you seem to be saying it is ok or even normal if a Christian lives as a gay person? Don't you believe they can have victory over it? Or that they should definitely work very hard at conquering it, and get help to do so?

And I seemed to get the impression from his site that he was just now coming out with it. So its not like he was taking heat from people like you imply.

I hope these are the questions you say I did not answer. I have been looking for them and this is what I have found.

What i am saying is that I am not going to stand in judgement of anyone who is struggling with an addiction. Yes, JESUS can deliver him. Unlike some here, I believe JESUS can choose not to give that victory until JESUS is ready to give that victory. That may not be while he is in this body.

So, I guess what I am saying s that I believe that we are made by GOD and what we are is what we are until HE remakes us. I know, it's not popular to trust in the work of the HOLY SPIRIT to clean us up, we need to do it ourselves.

Unlike some, I think salvation is by faith alone and is not contingient on any action of our own. I am thoroughly convinced that there will be people standing in the number who have died in some alley with a needle in their arm, drunk out of their gord with the only hope they have is that they trust JESUS to save their soul.

Call me wrong and off the mark and whatever else. I can take it.

But, I believe in grace.

I hope that is a better answer? To the point?

[kross]

I am going to make a point her that will rattle a few more feathers.

Repent means to turn from being GOD's enemy to being HIS friend. It does not imply the idea of turning from all of your sin in order to be saved. It implies turning to JESUS and away from SATAN. After that, it is the job of the HOLY SPIRIT to clean you up and HE will do it in his timing, not yours.

Of course, that is only if you believe grace is sufficient.

[Guest man]

Yes, JESUS can deliver him. Unlike some here, I believe JESUS can choose not to give that victory until JESUS is ready to give that victory. That may not be while he is in this body.

So you believe that God will allow someone to live their entire life in unrepentant sin, all the while knowing what the truth is, and after they die, He will clean them up?

[Guest man]

It implies turning to JESUS and away from SATAN.

But if someone is still openly and willfully sinning, they have not turned to Jesus or away from satan.

[nebula]

I was just thinking . . .

Wouldn't we be more effective if instead of arguing doctrine with each other we spent the energy joining hands in prayer?

Ray needs deliverance and repentance.

Anyone disagree?

Since neither of us are going to have any impact on his life personally, how about we impact him in the spiritual realm?

Can we cease this debate and just pray?

[BlindSeeker]

I was just thinking . . .

Wouldn't we be more effective if instead of arguing doctrine with each other we spent the energy joining hands in prayer?

Ray needs deliverance and repentance.

Anyone disagree?

Since neither of us are going to have any impact on his life personally, how about we impact him in the spiritual realm?

Can we cease this debate and just pray?

Come on Nebula, you Know God is capable of multifaceting