What is atheism?

[Botz]

[Botz]

Hi Hitchey...

Hi Botz,

1. The very fact that you don't see the idea of G-d has any substance, means that you chose not to pursue it...your choice is that you believe you know better than to seek Him.

Do you really think this is something I have not spent a great deal of time thinking about? The reason God has no substance for me is that I have pursued the matter at great length but come up emptly handed. Before I can believe in something I have to find a reason to believe. The default setting for me was belief. That belief was lost. I did try to get it back, but there comes a point when one finally settles into a new reality.

2. Creation is an inescapable option given to every human being that ever existed, what you chose to do with the natural evidence before you on a daily basis is up to you, and whose ideas you are most influenced by...again it comes down to choice, and whose report you chose to believe.

It is not that simplistic. I look at the natural evidence but I see no sign of God. You see God in the natural order because you already believe in God. On its own the natural world does not prove the existence of God anymore than it proves Enlil of the Sumerian creation myth was involved in the creation of the world. It is not just a matter of choice, unless of course you are making the point that I am choosing to base my decision on the evidence whereas you are choosing to base your decision on faith, despite the lack of evidence? If so, then yes. I cannot make a leap of faith when there are no solid reasons for doing so. But more to the point, I cannot just choose to believe in God anymore that I can choose to fall in love. Love either happens, or it doesn't and I either come to believe in God or I don't. I do not see it as a choice.

Hi Hitchey...

Apologies if I seemed presumptive on how you have pursued your quest for G-d, it was not quite meant as it sounds.

1. From where I am standing it still seems that you have come to your own conclusions, even if you have spent a great deal of time on it, and can see no reason to believe in G-d...personally I differentiate between belief, and actually knowing.

There are many people who call themselves Christians, and say they believe in G-d, but there seems to be a vast difference to those that say they actually know G-d...I would say it is impossible not to believe in G-d once you know Him...it just does not compute, because He dwells within you through the Holy Spirit who makes His presence real, and who fosters the hope of eternal life.

2. I think it is that simple. I am not saying that Creation is going to convince or instruct most people, but it is one of the pointers that various people in the past have come to recognise...and I have heard loads of people who came to know G-d talk about how they looked up to the vastness and majesty of the Heavens on a starry night and said to themselves...'there must be a G-d'.

I like most people certainly had a great appreciation of nature in all aspects before I was a Believer, but it was greatly enhanced after I understood G-ds creative genius.

As for your dilemma about 'choice'...we all make good and bad choices about things, whether we have faith in G-d or not, but I would say the choice to believe G-d is the first step of faith towards G-d and that one builds on that...lay hold of G-d and He will lay hold of you. I am often reminded of Michelangelos' depiction of Adam reaching out to G-d on the roof of the Cistene Chapel, and G-d reaching back to him.

I would also suggest that if G-d exists and the Biblical account is true, then the choice a person makes about the Gospel of Jesus, is the most important decision they can ever make, as it effects their life now, and in eternity...but most people want to live for the here and now, and are probably not that concerned what tomorrow brings.

[rstrats]

Hitchey,

re:

[Botz]

Hitchey,

re:

[rstrats]

Botz,

re:

Edited February 23, 2009 by rstrats

[Botz]

Botz,

re:

[Botz]

Hi Hitchey...

Apologies if I seemed presumptive on how you have pursued your quest for G-d, it was not quite meant as it sounds.

Botz, thanks for clarifying. I am learning it is easy to be misunderstood in some of these posts.

You're not wrong there Hitchey...but I think as one converses with others, you soon get a feel to what they are like...and sometimes we can all be a bit presumptive, and even a bit edgy if we take posts the wrong way...best thing is just to apologise if you;ve been taken wrongly...even if you are justified...it costs nothing but ones pride and promotes friendship and understanding...unless someone is well out of order.

1. From where I am standing it still seems that you have come to your own conclusions...

I wouldn't disagree with that.

I have found G-d has a habit of chipping away at conclusions devoid of Him...He wants to seriously interfere in every individuals life and blast them out of their comfort zone...my words, but you get the gist of it.

...personally I differentiate between belief, and actually knowing.

There are many people who call themselves Christians, and say they believe in G-d, but there seems to be a vast difference to those that say they actually know G-d...I would say it is impossible not to believe in G-d once you know Him...it just does not compute, because He dwells within you through the Holy Spirit who makes His presence real, and who fosters the hope of eternal life.

I would agree that if we think we know God it must follow we will also believe in God; but, I also think that we can think we know something without being in possession of proof. Having the sense that we know God is not equivalent to having knowledge that will convince someone else.

I don't think a Believer can necessarily convince another person just like that...I think there are several other factors at work...one is the prompting and conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the other is the invisible reasoning going on in the unbeliever's heart...there is usually a bit of a battle as none of us like giving up familiar ground.

2. I think it is that simple. I am not saying that Creation is going to convince or instruct most people, but it is one of the pointers that various people in the past have come to recognise...and I have heard loads of people who came to know G-d talk about how they looked up to the vastness and majesty of the Heavens on a starry night and said to themselves...'there must be a G-d'.

Francis Collins, the geneticist, said he stood before a frozen waterfall and felt the same thing. That experience made him a believer when before he had been an atheist (he had been mulling God over in his mind for some months before he experienced this grand majesty of the universe, in the waterfall). I know people can have such experiences, but they do not prove God's existence. It shows people can be moved by the beauty and wonder of the universe, but not all will see God. This much I guess we agree upon.

I think the point is that nature...eg every living thing was created by G-d...and when a person begins to focus on that possibility then nature is active in pointing him in the right direction...Romans 1:20 says...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made.....

As for your dilemma about 'choice'...we all make good and bad choices about things, whether we have faith in G-d or not, but I would say the choice to believe G-d is the first step of faith towards G-d and that one builds on that...lay hold of G-d and He will lay hold of you.

This might be plausible for some, but if one is content with a secular world view, this would be a bit of a stretch.

Those who are content to go quietly into the night will do so ...if they are Hell bent on doing so. The L-rd didn't come to save the righteous, but the sinner...those that have a cry and a hunger in their heart.

I would also suggest that if G-d exists and the Biblical account is true, then the choice a person makes about the Gospel of Jesus, is the most important decision they can ever make, as it effects their life now, and in eternity...

Pascal's Wager?

Not really...although that reminds me of a verse from a song that said....'and if Heaven never was promised to me...its been worth just having the L-rd in my life...living in a world of darkness He came and brought me the light.'

... but most people want to live for the here and now, and are probably not that concerned what tomorrow brings.

Certainly some. I have lived enough years that I am beginning to feel somewhat mortal.

Confrontation with our mortality can come at any stage in our life, and is a good means to get us to think about the prospect of eternity, judgment, sin, seeing those we love again...etc.

[MorningGlory]

For some atheists I would say Creation is not an option, rather evolution of the cosmos is the only thing that makes sense. It's like fairies are not an option. There may be people out there who believe we are daily faced with evidence of fairies. I just don't see it.

Did you ever question where the cosmos came from?

[TheStudent]

In my simple view, given the circumstance no decisive proofs one way or the other exist

as to the being or non-being of God, they which decide God not exist doso merely from their desire God not exist. Those devoted to knowledge would stand undecided, relative

to one not having their own personal witness of God.

It's interesting, science derives from personal witness and employs the concensus

of testimonies to validate it's assertions of knowledge. As it happens, there be also

honest and genuine testimonies of ones own personal witness of the Soul of God or

such, and they also may share the likeness of description which concensus is.

In fairness, by such concensus each share a valid place as knowledge.

Edited May 14, 2009 by TheStudent

[OneLight]

In my simple view, given the circumstance no decisive proofs one way or the other exist

as to the being or non-being of God, they which decide God not exist doso merely from their desire God not exist. Those devoted to knowledge would stand undecided, relative

to one not having their own personal witness of God.

Do you believe in God? Who is Christ to you?