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I heard someone mentioning that before, and to this person it would help explain why Ahithopel would eventually turn against David, because of what David did to his granddaughter.

From my study blog .... 2Sa 11:3 And David sent and enquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife ofUriah the Hittite? The daughter of Eliam - Or Ammiel; a word of the same meaning, The people of my God, The God of my people. This name expressed the covenant - I will be your God; We will be thy people.1Ch_3:5 And these were born to him in Jerusalem Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four of Bathsheba the daughter of Ammielthe component words being placed in an inverse order. Bathsheba was the granddaughter of Ahithophel 2Sa_23:34 Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite; Eliam the son of Ahithophel, the Gilonite;

You know the heart of God is something i have sought after so desperately wanting to search it and see what beautifil things i would find. his heart is the very essence of who he is and is the greatest treasure in all of heaven. its depth knows no bounds nor has a limit, i knew this but my hunger for him also knows no bounds i have what you would call a very greedy heart for him i once had a daydream where father and i where standing face to face in a pure white place he showed me his heart and said search to your hearts content i would just have to touch it and i could dive into that beautiful treasure. saddly i could not search it at that time as if a veil was keeping me ffom going any further in that daydream. try as i might as badly as i wanted to i could not see the secrets and deep things of his heart. i can say this though, if i had i would have seen beauty beyong the imaginations. i would have fallen so deeply in love with him my heart would melt- i mean just absolutely dissolve with such tender love and my eyes would be flowing with nonstop tears of both the beauty of him and the enriching love for him all the while stunned unabale to speak at his power and glory. he would probably chuckle and give me warm hug while i listen to his heart beat. which also made me think heaven is so beautiful beyond our wildest dreams so i gaurantee heaven and its beauty and glory is the manifestation of his heart

When I was homeless, (thirty years) I would have had no need for two coats and I was a Christian. So you have just met one

The bible does not point to late September for Jesus birth. That is an error which has been propogated by certain teachers who apparently have a vested interest in a fall birth. Basing Jesus birth on the timing of the course of Abijah is a nice attempt, but the full understanding of these courses does not lead to that conclusion. The Priests were divided into 24 groups, and each group served one week at a time. Abijah is the 8th group. Since there are 24 groups, obviously they must serve twice a year. Those who try to state with certainty ignore the twice a year service. Also the Hebrew calendar does not match the modern calendar. The Hebrew year starts on the first day of the month of Nissan. That is approximately March-April. Eight weeks later would be the end of the month of Iyyar which is approximately April-May. Of course this fluctuates based on whether there is a leap month. (The calendar adjusts for drift, not with a leap day but with a leap month). Plus, for High Holidays, there is no separate course, but rather more priests are needed so some of all differing courses serve in the Temple. This March-April timing is what is set forth by those who wish Jesus was born in September, (and by now it should be understood that the fluctuations of the Hebrew calendar do not allow for anyone to claim September). That second course in a year for Abiyah is in the fall in the month of Marheshvan which can be from October to November. Ok, let's do this calculation. If Elizabeth became pregnant at the end of October, or beginning of November, that would put the birth of John sometime around June or July. Add 6 months to June, and you have around the December timeframe. Oh my!!!!! The reality is, we can not know the exact time of Jesus birth based on the courses of the priesthood, as there are too many variables, but one this is sure, the courses do not eliminate December. They do not confirm December, but for those trying to prove otherwise, they do not eliminate December. I have written on the weather in the area of Bethlehem before. Many people assume for some reason that the sheep would not be out grazing in December, but they try to make an assumption which is not based on the actual weather in the Bethlehem area. Bethlehem is more of a mild meditaranean climate in temperature but is also in the desert. That means in December, the temperatures average around 50 or 60 degrees. http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12 Throughout the month of December daytime temperatures will generally reach highs of around 14°C that's about 58°F. At night the average minimum temperature drops down to around 7°C, that's 44°F. In recent times the highest recorded temperature in December has been 29°C that's 83°F, with the lowest recorded temperature -1°C, about 30°F. So, we can say that Bethlehem is not so cold that the shepherds would not be out grazing the sheep. The other factor is that the Bethlehem area is arrid, desert like. There is only grass on the hills after rainy seasons. The rest of the time, the plants would be brown and not growing. For sheep to be grazing, it must be right after the rainy season and not after an extended dry time. From the previous site for December: Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 71 mm, that's 3 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 11 days of the month, with snow falling on 1 days. Now let's look at the rain around Bethlehem in September: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=9 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. How about August: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=8 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 0 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. One more month back to find rain to have grass to graze on in September so here is July in Bethlehem: http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=7 Precipitation The average monthly amount of precipitation has been recorded at around 10 mm, that's 0 inches. Throughout the month you can expect to see rain or drizzle falling on 0 days of the month. So, we can conclude that the shepherds would definitely NOT be out with the sheep in August, September or October, as there is nothing to graze on. The rainy season starts around November and ends around the April. In December, in the hills around Bethlehem, everything is in full bloom. From May - October, there is no rain, or only trace amounts (0 to less then an inch per month) so everything is dryed out and brown.

Good post Shiloh, thanks for that.

I apologize if my words came across this way. If you had seen my body language, my words were expressing the shock I felt at what was being proclaimed.

Wow - thank you for posting this insight.

King James Bible the best version around.

Fruitfull, the Bible clearly states that if we break one law we have broken them ALL. If we keep one law we have to keep them ALL. let's look at some other laws. the law of the Sabbath, original stated that no one was to leave their place on the Sabbath, their place being interpreted as their Home. this was then decided that place meant their city and not their home, so that people could go to the temple on the Sabbath, so the priest added a distance( 2000 cubits) that could be traveled on the Sabbath, Then one Priest said well if they can travel 2000 cubits to go to the temple then they may need another 2000 cubits to make it back home. ( 4000 cubits total) then on toward the new testament and cities growing larger. they added another 4000 cubits to make a Sabbath days journey 8000 cubits. now 6000 cubits is a little over a mile, so a Sabbath days journey would be over 1 and a 1/3 of a mile .now that was the last time the law was changed . so if you travel over that distance on the Sabbath to go to your temple/church, then you should not cast stones at people with Christmas trees, for you to have broken the law. now one more, assuming the church you attends preaches against Christmas trees, does the Pastor or leader of said church, shave the beard or head? for that too would defile a priest before God so I can see a well shaven preacher at your church preaching not to put up a Christmas tree, being well shaven or clean shaven would be a sin for a priest/ leader of a flock. in the eyes of God. note also here a woman couldn't be the leader unless they had a beard that is!!!! Lev 21:4-5 4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself. 5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh. KJV the law was not given as bondage but to teach( as a schoolmaster) that All stand in the need of the mercy and Grace of God!

Prair i cannot believe what u have said:D i too read how david said those things and because i saw that i prayed the very same thing. i often times would be talking to God praying and asking him things only to be shocked as i read psalms david said the exact same things. i never even read about them when i asked lol. i noticed david and i are very much alike not just because we said the same things but we both sought after his heart exhaustively we both always speak our hearts to him whether grieving or praise we both relied heavily on him for our needs and knew we could ask anything of him and when things got bad or when we really messed up he was always the first one we would run to. i call the book of psalms the book of encouragement and my heart has a special connection to that book. But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought Him a man after His own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over His people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee. I Samuel 13:14 Fireheart these words Samuel spoke unto king Saul concerning David taking over his kingdom where because David heart was so like God's, you have this same quality .

by George Whitten, Editor of Worthy Devotions 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Picture this — you come home from a long day of work — you walk into your living room — plop down on your couch in exhaustion — and there in the corner of the room — your eyes are drawn to something moving — it's a rattlesnake! Do you say to yourself, "Oh, I'm too tired to worry about that now, I'll deal with it later?" Of course not! You jump up right away, find a bat or something, alert your family, call the neighbors, 911, the fire department, the national guard, and start praying with all your might! It's a life-threatening situation! Though it may sound extreme, negative thoughts, which are lies, opposed to God's truth and character, should be treated the same way when they enter our minds. We ought to immediately sense their danger and rise to action; take that thought captive and bring it under submission to the truth of God's word. These thoughts are as poisonous to our minds and souls as rattlesnake bites are to our bodies. If we realize that danger, we'll be extremely vigilant to watch what we allow to sneak into our minds and remain there. Thoughts cannot be taken captive until they appear and are recognized. So we need to watch them carefully and consider whether they're good and true or not. Bad thinking comes in many forms. Dangerous thoughts can be obvious and easily recognized as sinful and evil or destructive, lustful, vengeful, spiteful, and vain; or they can be subtle as snakes, quietly lying in the background like clever rationalizations or spiritual pride. Whatever form they take is dangerous to our spiritual well being, and this word from Paul exhorts us to deal with them on the spot, just as if a snake had entered the house. Your mind is active and thinking during every waking hour, (and also of course in your dreams). Developing a habit of watchfulness over your thinking is a challenging discipline that will change your life and protect your spiritual house. Knowing the word of God is a tremendous help since the word contains God's thoughts which are the corrective for our bad and wrong thinking. So pay attention! What was that my mind just told me? Is that true and good, blessed and holy…or is it a snake? Respond accordingly…and fast! View the full article

"concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." Why did you quote this with "The Day of Christ," instead of "The Day of the Lord"? "The Day of Christ" as here, never occurs in the Bible (unless you insist on it here). Philippians has twice "day of Christ" with no "the" in the original text. Your modern authoritative translations have "The Day of the Lord," a frequent expression in the Bible. Have you done a check of the occurrences of "The Day of the Lord" in the Bible to see what the expression means? I also don't know why you render "had come," instead of "has come."

======================================================================================== Was that an OP-ED piece? How so? That must be the reason you never post any. You also seem to not post any support whatsoever? (See:OP-ED Piece Above) GOD did (is it still ridiculous?), It's called the Book of Revelation; Specifically..... (Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." So who is The Lambs Wife? .................THE CHURCH: (Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." (Romans 7:4) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." Can you tell me Please, How in the World (Christ's Bride......"The Church") and Christ are just Married and had Dinner In Heaven. Then Christ, with HIS BRIDE Following, .... treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."..... That CULMINATES TRIBULATION. ........but then, The Church is Raptured?????? You could start by supporting your statements. I wouldn't want you to waste any of your time, however. Wrong question. It's not what He Can or Can't Do...... it's what HE said HE WOULD DO. (Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." See the separation?

father hear your servant, allow the cry and desperate plea from an underving child to reach your ears and move your heart. take pity on me Lord for i am nothing compared to you and as a sinner as a human i can recieve nothing-no not even an answered prayer without your un ending love and grace. Lord your words have moved me, i seek as your sevant david did to know this heart of yours to recieve it percieve it honor it and fear it. I cry out to you lord to fix my broken soul, i hear its moaning for you O' God i feel its hurting as one hurts from starvation. do you hear it Lord? do you feel it? the moaning of such a hungry soul for you is truly something difficult to bear. Lord, i beg of u to keep your promise to fill such a hunger to satisfy an intense thirst for your own heart. yet even so i made it a covanent with you to trust you and rejoice of your will being done even if you choose to withhold from me a little while longer. for are your ways not greater than ours? do u not see what the flesh cannot? is life not truly blessed in trusting you in the darkness? to be glad and having a happy heart for your will to be done not our own? I pray this as a desperate plea, as a last resort likened to the final breath of dust made soul. to teach me your ways to create in me such love for your commands and such a wonderful love to obey you above even the strongest of my desires flesh and all. for i fear lord you servant has forgotten your statutes, has strayed from your honorable decrees. Yet even so Lord you continue to speak to my heart as you reveal to me yours in turn. if nothing else this i know of you that you desire those who desire you. does the Lord not thirst for those who thirst for him? does he not deeply hunger for those whose hunger for him as deep as a blade cutting the very soul? does he not long for us to be with him as we long to be with him? even now i feel my arms craving to hold you as if my arms hunger for you as well. I end this with a final word for you let your glory be made known and abound in the heavens in your answer to my request no matter the answer

As with King David, I feel that God is calling you also, "A man after His own heart." God bless you, Fire-Heart, and the beauty of your heart and soul. You are a fantastic witness to me! Thank you so much for your encouragement. I prayed this prayer right along with you, amen. Glory to You, our heavenly Father, who was and is and is to come! *~~* MARANATHA! *~~* Shalom, Prair

Hi there; you do have a list of questions. You say, "I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ," Yes, there is one Body of Christ. As to going to Hell Fire, the only reason why men go there is that they are sinners. The wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is the 2nd death. You ask about Christmas celebrations. There is nothing advocating that in the Bible -- nor forbidding it. No scripture said that Mary of Bethany should put nard on the Lord's head. Judas objected. I find no prohibition in the Bible against drinking a little wine for the stomach's sake & the oft infirmity; indeed Paul gave Timothy that order. Drunkenness is another matter. The point is that Christianity is about loving God & neighbor, rather than concentrating on minor points.

That is a good attitute to have as well.

If you are talking about those who hold up a cardboard sign on the street I usually do not give to them.I know that there are alot of agencies and resources for those people.They can use their EBT cards for things they can eat.I might give them a bottle of water or a gift certificate for a burger but never cash.I do know that many,many are abusing the system.They are very dishonest.That is making it alot harder for those who are definately disabled and need the services.

You ask a good question.... For me personally, it's really quite simple. If someone asks for help I will give it, and if they "ask amiss" or use it for something other than what was intended...well, I figure that is between them and the Lord.

Prair i cannot believe what u have said:D i too read how david said those things and because i saw that i prayed the very same thing. i often times would be talking to God praying and asking him things only to be shocked as i read psalms david said the exact same things. i never even read about them when i asked lol. i noticed david and i are very much alike not just because we said the same things but we both sought after his heart exhaustively we both always speak our hearts to him whether grieving or praise we both relied heavily on him for our needs and knew we could ask anything of him and when things got bad or when we really messed up he was always the first one we would run to. i call the book of psalms the book of encouragement and my heart has a special connection to that book.

For the Heart of God, read Jeremiah. 19 My anguish, my anguish! I am pained at my very heart; my heart is disquieted in me; I cannot hold my peace; because youi have heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a darling child? for as often as I speak against him, I earnestly remember him still: therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, says The LORD. 36 Therefore my heart sounds for Moab like pipes, and my heart sounds like pipes for the men of Kir-heres: therefore the abundance that he has gotten is perished. 7 But if you will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret for your pride; and my eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is taken captive. Then consider that the Holy Spirit is grieved, suffers mental pain.

Our law is not consistant. If a fetus is killed in the act of killing the mother it is considered a double homocide or a murder plus homocide. When women have the right to murder their own fetus, it is not longer a "right". Nor is it their own body that they are murdering, but that of an individual human being. The whole thing has become irrational and is twisted. But I have a very close friend who is deceived by the propaganda. She has never wanted children and I don't believe she has ever conceived. But she bitterly defends the "woman's right". The only thing we have a right to is to be faithful to a husband or remain celibate. To do otherwise is base and degrading, in my mind. Sin is base and degrading. Thanks be to God Who washes us, sancitifies and justifies us in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Hallelujah! I love your beautiful spirit, Fire! Praise God! It was many years ago, when I first read Genesis 6 that my heart was broken for the Lord. I read where mankind grieved our sweet Lord, and that He was sorry He had made man. I heard Him say the thoughts of our hearts are only for evil and not good. Then, I read David's words pleading with God to search him and know him. He prayed for God to show him any unclean way that resided in his heart. So, I made that my prayer, too. I am hungry and thirsty for God and for His Holy Living Word, amen. Let us pray that we all hunger and thirst for God's righteousness. To God be the glory, amen. Peace to you and God bless you, Prair

Hi Willamina I realized you had quoted Shiloh after I posted...my type in green, but decided to leave the response in response to what he wrote I didn't know it was a quote at first because the quote does not show except for the bracket at the begining of your post It's a little confusing but the point I am trying to make is that the op's premise is faulty as it does not take into account the law but only the words given to Noah and he seems to think that God was quiet after that...at least where Noah is concerned I actually said the following with regards to abortion: I have already stated that I believe that abortion is like a child sacrifice to the devil. That is my own thought on the matter....however, lumping everything together and asking why is an over simplification of physical and spiritual concerns. It is obvious that the spiritual conflict reveals itself in the physical, especially as we continue without God's direct intervention in sin such as the flood. There is no room in scripture to get into a rage....there is room for anger but not with sin. The op shows a lack of knowledge of scripture to ask the question that was asked, but seems to ignore responses that deal with that as well as scripture provided to indicate that his question is more personal than biblical. I didn't feel like re-writing my post and the trade off was a lack of clairity on my part....sorry for the confusion Hope I have made myself clearer now.

The governments are not obeying God. However, Christians are strangers and pilgrims in this age with citizenship in Heaven. Infanticide must have been rampant in the days when the NT was written, even after the child was born. But there is no call for Christians in the NT to enforce the law of Genesis 9 in the NT.

Not a dodge at all, but a solid answer. Shiloh said 'Abortion is murder. And in a more ideal country and society, doctors who commit abortions would be tried for murder under our laws and if convicted, sentenced accordingly.' Biblically, abortion is murder in the Mosaic covenant. However, the U.S. is not Israel and is not under the Mosaic covenant. A doctor who performs abortions are committing murder according to scripture, but abortion is not against the law in the U.S., so, the law says abortion is not murder. Now we face two differing laws. In the Mosaic covenant, there are different kinds of murder with differing penalties. If it is an accidental murder, then the person runs to the city of refuge to avoid the avenger sent by the wronged family. Again, the U.S. is not Israel and does not have cities of refuge or allow for a family to choose an avenger. Is the doctor committing an unintentional murder? Well, the currect U.S. law says that abortion is not murder, and the baby is not really a baby but is just some cells. If the doctor believes that to be true, then the murder is unintentional. It doesn't matter though as the Mosaic law for Israel can not be followed in the U.S. and is not the law in the U.S. Shiloh is saying, the laws should be changed. Not like the Mosaic covenant, but as each country legislates the law. Abortion should be recognized as murder, and penalties for murder should be set up in the law. As a believer, I personally am against the death penalty. Death is permanent, and the death penalty doesn't just kill the person but takes away any possibility for future salvation. Every opportunity to hear the gospel should be given to every living person. The death penalty is a jury or judge determining that there is no possibility of salvation for that person, and I do not believe we can or should make that call.

So Shiloh, do you support the OP and advocate the killing of those mentioned?

I found it interesting that this is the first and about the only thing God said after the flood to Noah. So it must be very close to Gods heart. By the way.... shed blood - - to kill by violence; slaughter. slaugh·ter - the brutal or violent killing of a person. - to kill in a brutal or violent manner. I would say that pretty much describes an abortion. So if I'm reading this correctly really the people partaking in abortion should be executed the same way. Whoever slaughters human blood by humans their blood should be slaughtered. I also find it interesting when Jesus was slaughtered....they released a murderer. Why was that murderer even alive? When did we stop obeying God on this? And why? Do u think when Jesus comes back and rules on earth he will implement what his Father told Noah? I think a little thought and understanding is required here. Time did not stand still after the flood. I would expect Noah continued to look towards God and God continued to lead him. Every word or impression or events that occured are simply not recorded in scripture and I think that believing only what is written is all that ever transpired, leads to erroneous conclusions. 1. The law was not yet given, so saying that the only stipulation concerning murder was given to Noah after the flood by God would be wrong 2. Why didn't God kill Cain right off? Seems He should have done so if your understanding is correct...rather, God had this to say: Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15But the Lord said to him, “Not soe ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,f east of Eden. Gen.4 3. The law was given to define sin. If you cannot keep the entire law, then you have broken all of it. Scripture actually says this regarding keeping the law: Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal. 3 Your reasoning does not actually take into account all that the Bible has to say about God's vengeance, God's knowledge of the heart and all the other things we cannot apply when it comes to deciding the fate of an individual. Homosexuality is also punishable by death. Who is going to run the death squads putting everyone who transgresses God's law to death? Should Christians apply the death penalty? Your premise creates questions and does not address God's solution to sin which is not arrived at by killing everyone who breaks His law because all of us are guilty of breaking His law and all of us deserve the death penalty...even if we had never aborted a child or murdered someone or even accidentally killed someone. So God changed his mind....so shedding blood is no big deal....just ask forgiveness....so Jesus came to earth....to allow us to abort babies by the millions...innocent blood...it not a human being....it's a choice....please quote scripture that overrides God commandment... Abortionist can be forgiven...if it comes from the heart...but that shouldn't override the punishment of shedding innocent blood...no matter what a man made law says... I feel like us as humans have neglected our responsibilities....to do what God said to do... That's a rather sarcastic response based on nothing I actually wrote, wouldn't you say? How about the scriptural viewpoint I have already expressed? What are you thoughts on all of that ? Why should I or anyone else provide further evidence from the Bible that your viewpoint is skewed, if you ignore what has already been posted? I am wondering why you are just concentrating on abortion here when murder is murder is murder. Is there a special reason for your op?

So we should stone adulterers? There wouldn't be as many today if they did. (That's my warped sense of humor)

I will echo 7seas...you are taking a single verse out of its context and trying to apply too much doctrine to it. I would suggest you move past this verse and read the rest of your bible

Genesis 9:5-6 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. “Whoever sheds human blood,by humans shall their blood be shed;for in the image of God has God made mankind. ... BY HUMANS. Good questions. Why didn't HUMANS slaughter David and Moses ....and while on the subject how about Paul...? Why are Humans letting humans get way with murder? When God said it was alright to rid the earth of them..... Humans should have intervened for Jesus.... Humans should intervene for innocent lives being slaughtered if you want to win favor and be obedient to Almighty God... INNOCENT is the key word... The answers you appear to seek are contained in the Bible. The entire book however, and not just one verse that you appear to interpret as God's stamp of approval on killing.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I found it interesting that this is the first and about the only thing God said after the flood to Noah. So it must be very close to Gods heart. By the way.... shed blood - - to kill by violence; slaughter. slaugh·ter - the brutal or violent killing of a person. - to kill in a brutal or violent manner. I would say that pretty much describes an abortion. So if I'm reading this correctly really the people partaking in abortion should be executed the same way. Whoever slaughters human blood by humans their blood should be slaughtered. I also find it interesting when Jesus was slaughtered....they released a murderer. Why was that murderer even alive? When did we stop obeying God on this? And why? Do u think when Jesus comes back and rules on earth he will implement what his Father told Noah? I think a little thought and understanding is required here. Time did not stand still after the flood. I would expect Noah continued to look towards God and God continued to lead him. Every word or impression or events that occured are simply not recorded in scripture and I think that believing only what is written is all that ever transpired, leads to erroneous conclusions. 1. The law was not yet given, so saying that the only stipulation concerning murder was given to Noah after the flood by God would be wrong 2. Why didn't God kill Cain right off? Seems He should have done so if your understanding is correct...rather, God had this to say: Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15But the Lord said to him, “Not soe ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,f east of Eden. Gen.4 3. The law was given to define sin. If you cannot keep the entire law, then you have broken all of it. Scripture actually says this regarding keeping the law: Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal. 3 Your reasoning does not actually take into account all that the Bible has to say about God's vengeance, God's knowledge of the heart and all the other things we cannot apply when it comes to deciding the fate of an individual. Homosexuality is also punishable by death. Who is going to run the death squads putting everyone who transgresses God's law to death? Should Christians apply the death penalty? Your premise creates questions and does not address God's solution to sin which is not arrived at by killing everyone who breaks His law because all of us are guilty of breaking His law and all of us deserve the death penalty...even if we had never aborted a child or murdered someone or even accidentally killed someone.

Hi Oakwood...the only reason I posted what you commented on, is because Butch was apparently trying to paint a picture that is not correct. I was not trying to indicate that one side was innocent or one side was better than the other. The whole thing is such a mess, that only God can sort it out The thread was already derailed with the insertion of the writings and interpretations of the 'early church fathers' I think the subject matter of the Crusades is very interesting, but far off the topic of this thread I will state this though, the acts committed by the Crusaders were not Christian. And let's not even begin to think about the children's crusade. God must have wept at that one for sure. Thanks

Just for a different view, here is the history of the crusades from a Jewish site. (I do not regularly recommend AISH for other reasons, but in this case, it does give an entirely different view of the crusades). http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48950796.html

Hi Jerry, I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods. If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations. Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions. A lot of that is made up history revisionism. Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god. I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion. Before xmas was the Roman saturnalia 200 AD circa and before that was something earlier and so on. Most of our xmas customs evolved from ancient pagan practices.- even the prophets warned the jews to avoid the Babylonian practices where a lot of our current customs evolved. Jer; 3;13, circa 500-600 BC that is complete nonsense. Most of Christmas tradition orginated in Christian Europe, not in Babylon. You need to look a little deeper. santa clause/jolly old nick some of those things evolved during Christian Europe but the Dec 25 birthday is about as pagan as you can get. There are multitudes of history books and encyclopedias that explore the ancient past of xmas customs. Tree decorating, exchanging gifts, caroling, ornaments, virgin birth, nativity scene, etc.are pagan practices going back thousands of years back before Christ. take a look at Hislops " The Two Babylons " or the encyclopedia of religion and ethics.There are too many resources to mention. Christmas contradicts biblical facts. Xmas is rooted in ancient customs and religious practices that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible. Easter, which is approaching soon, is another example of traditions that are not of Christian origin Rather than follow ancient or modern mythological practices God shows us a better way of life with His sacred Holy feast days. The choices you make will affect your destiny. Are you really making the celebration of Christmas and Easter a salvation issue? Do you really believe those who celebrate Dec. 25th as Jesus birthday are risking their salvation? Christmas is on Dec 25th. Saturnalia began on Dec. 17th. The winter solstice is on Dec. 21st. None of these dates match. A pagan practice involves the worship of pagan gods. Jesus is not a pagan god. As far as the OT Holy days, those were given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Not Gentiles. And not the Church. Neither Christmas nor Easter are pagan. And we are under the New Covenant, not the Mosaic covenant. You read too much really bad information which is usually written with an agenda to justify bad theology. I would suggest reading some genuine Messianic Judaism sites to get the real information. The UMJC has many papers written on these topics. So much to say and so little time. i;m not trying to make an issue here-that's your department. If we have prolific proof available as we do with the origins of christmas including even the catholic encyclopedias that xmas is ripe in pagan philosophy and we ignore it so as not to upset our comfortable way of celebrating than we could be at risk of sinning willfully. Christ was not born in the winter on or near December 25-there's Biblical proof. When it comes to the children of Israel we find that they were made up of 12 tribes-the tribe of Judah (Jews) being only one of them. The Israelites consisted of gentiles as well during the exodus. When God made His covenant with the children of Israel and their descendants it included all 12 tribes. Is it possible that some of us are part of the latter day Israelites? Paul brought the church and its teachings and observances of God's feast days to the gentiles. There is no mention of christmas celebrations in the New Testament. You won't even find a religious service or feast day held to commerorate Jesus birth in the NT. December 25th has a very dark and checkered past. Saturnalia began on the 17th but ran for 7 days to the 24 - our christmas eve, Dec 25 was the original celebrated winter solstice. It was changed later in history to the 21st. businesses were closed, parties were held, gifts exchanged-sound familiar? It is a fact that Dec 25 was the birthday for many ancient sun gods part of the winter solstice celebrations. During the time of the Apostles and the NT church Romans celebrated the feast of the saturnalia while the church kept the " feasts of the Lord " The Christian history books over the centuries showed an animosity to xmas because of their relationship to sun worshiping. Xmas was banned at one time in England and in New England. But another popular religious holiday, Easter has an even more deceptive past. Check out its origins. We all have the tools in our world of technology. A lot of bad information in your post. Actually too much of it is off topic for this thread so I will not respond so as not to disrupt. But, I will say to you that based on what you wrote, I would strongly suggest looking into some Messianic Judaism teachers, (not those connected to Two House or One law).

No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? The Hebrew word ets is used which means tree. Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods. Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well. Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition. I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that? There is no warning from God that Christmas is a pagan practice. Some like to use Jeremiah 10, but it does not apply. Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. The work of the workman, is speaking about an artist, who is carving the tree. It is forbidding the Asherah pole. An Asherah pole is a tree, stripped of branches and the trunk is carved into the form of Astarte. Nothing can be clearer that a Christmas tree is not stripped of branches and carved into a figurine. A Christmas tree has absolutely nothing to do with Asherah poles. And if the use of a tree for decoration is forbidden, the the customary Succah, (booth), which is often decorated with various fruit, and tree branches would be in question also. Yes, ets means tree, it is not forbidden to cut down a tree. It is even not forbidden to strip branches from a tree. It is not forbidden to decorate a tree. It is forbidden to carve a tree into a figurine of a pagan god. Actually, Dec 25th is not necessarily the 'birthday of Mithra', as that is historically disputed. However, there was a very wide variety of pagan religions (those who worshipped false gods). Due to the large number of pagan beliefs, and some research into the holidays they celebrated, just about every single day of the calendar is a pagan holiday of some religion dedicated to a false god. Scripture does not forbid celebrating the real God on the same day that some pagan is celebrating their false god. As believers in Jesus, we are to celebrate and worship all days of the year, and agreed upon special days of gathering for worship, or worship in the home with family, are absolutely biblical. There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Dec 25th, but forbidding worship on Dec 25th because it coincides with an old pagan holiday is unbiblical.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. John 13:23

<p>by George Whitten, Editor of <a title="daily devotions" href="http://www.worthydevotions.com">Worthy Devotions</a></p> <p><strong>Ephesians 4:3-6 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.</strong></p> <p>Yesterday, a good pastor friend of ours told us that his congregation was experiencing some hardships and division. How often does this happen among us? It breaks my heart — and I believe the Lord weeps over this too.</p> <p>Aesop wrote a fable about four bulls who were the best of friends. They always kept close to each other so that in the event that danger came their way, they would face it together. They traveled together, grazed together, and lay down to rest together.</p> <p>One day, a hungry lion who lived nearby spotted these four friends and became determined to catch one. He was no match for all four of them at once, so he would follow them and watch carefully, hoping to catch one alone. Every time he saw one lagging the least bit behind, he would sneak up and whisper to him that the others had been saying unkind things about him. This, he did with each bull until finally all four began to feel suspicious and uneasy around one another. Each thought that the other three were plotting against him.</p> <p>When the lion succeeded in breaking the trust among them, the bulls went their separate ways……. and one by one, he devoured them.</p> <p>I'm sure you can see the analogy here. The enemy would love nothing more than to divide us and break the trust among us in the body of Messiah. He knows full well that if he can just get us separated, he can come in for the kill!</p> <p>Let's not allow the devil to play out his wicked scheme! Be on guard! Don't gossip — overlook offenses — pray with one another and be determined to stick together, so that we may accomplish great and mighty things for God's kingdom! There's power in numbers — and there's SO much work to be done!</p> <!-- Start Shareaholic Recommendations Automatic --><!-- End Shareaholic Recommendations Automatic --> View the full article

Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isaiah 6:3

So we should stone adulterers?

If you were walking through the park, and you saw a couple of teenage boys in process of raping a child, would you come after these boys as forcefully as possible, or would you walk by trusting that God would take care of things? Isn't it about what the Scriptures say and not what I would do? NO IT IS NOT. Your answer is classic deflection. Please just answer the question. What would you do, and why?

It is best to obey the Lord in all.

I think we would have to rewind far futher than abortion. It's been going on since Cain and Abel I consider abortion to be the equivalent of child sacrifice. The devil still is offered children as he was in the cultures we read about in the Bible and other literature. Sin has deep roots

OK ~ Butch...it seems obvious from your response that you are Catholic. I don't abide by the traditions of early church fathers as I am not Catholic. I'm not pushing an agenda here and I don't think the op is either. You have not responded to what I post...you are quoting what you call the early church fathers. I'm truly not interested in your viewpoint on the early church fathers. However, just for the sake of illustrating the hypocrisy of what the early church fathers said and wrote and the actual acts of the Catholic church, here is a quick refresher: Pope Urban II (1088-1099, see art below) was responsible for assisting Emperor Alexus I (1081-1118) of Constantinople in launching the first crusade. He made one of the most influential speeches in the Middle Ages, calling on Christian princes in Europe to go on a crusade to rescue the Holy Land from the Turks. In the speech given at the Council of Clermont in France, on November 27, 1095, he combined the ideas of making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land with that of waging a holy war against infidels.1 Dr. E.L. Skip Knox gives a summary of the pope's speech, which has been recorded differently in various sources: "The noble race of Franks must come to the aid their fellow Christians in the East. The infidel Turks are advancing into the heart of Eastern Christendom; Christians are being oppressed and attacked; churches and holy places are being defiled. Jerusalem is groaning under the Saracen yoke. The Holy Sepulchre is in Moslem hands and has been turned into a mosque. Pilgrims are harassed and even prevented from access to the Holy Land. "The West must march to the defense of the East. All should go, rich and poor alike. The Franks must stop their internal wars and squabbles. Let them go instead against the infidel and fight a righteous war. "God himself will lead them, for they will be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it! Do you have any idea of the atrocities committed by these good Christians in the name of the Catholic church? I do not think a history of the early church fathers writings should leave out the acts of the Catholic church if one wants to have that discussion Personally, I do not want to have that disucssion nor do I care to be identified with those who commit physical acts of violence...you mentionned Hitler and WWII....I have not ever committed an act of violence against another but I have had physical violence comitted against me. I did not strike back so your points are truly mute. and have you ever heard about the Spanish Inquisition? Who ordered that? It certainly is not scriptural. At least WWII was fought for a cause and not because one religion thought everyone else should bow the knee to it I will not post farther with regards to your interest in the early church fathers. Perhaps someone else would like to discuss your beliefs with you.

Sometimes the baby has to be taken to preserve the life of the mother, such as in fallopian tube pregnancies. Planned Parenthood lies about what happens to the baby. They don't tell that the baby can feel pain, and that it is burned to death with acid or else pulled limb from limb. They tell teenaged girls that they are just removing unwanted tissue from their bodies. This is the organization that should be blamed as well as those universities and politicians that perpetuate the lies to prevent overpopulation.. Often the young girls are under great pressure from the father or their families to get rid of the baby. Others don't want to assume the financial responsibility or embarassment for the baby. So 14-15 year old girls are ostracised and even abandoned for not having abortions. I agree that the surpreme court is now creating law. At best it interprets law to circumvent the constitiution, as does our president. It is a web of lies much like the ones about the evolution of one species into another. Both have gone on so long they are set in stone. And both attack the sanctity of human life.

A few thoughts here: Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other George Orwell Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice Martin Luther King Jr. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

This is both true and biblical Show me scripture that states our sins are recorded and how? And then show me scripture that says they are forgiven?

This is one of the reasons many reject Christianity. um...no. They reject Christ...not Christianity. God has already offered His love through His Son. The book of Romans makes it plain that people are without excuse when they reject God and turn away from Him. Saying we did not love the Nazis is a ridiculous statement. Did an army of Christians go to war against Germany and its allies? did everyone else just stay home and hope that "Christians" saved the world from a demonic beast? Were all the leaders of various countries Christians and by default everyone in that country was too and they all went to war and hated Nazis? Think about what you saying here. It really makes no sense. If anyone who was a Christian just stayed home and said "I am a Chrisitan and I will love those who are murdering men, women and children in concentration camps", how do you think that would go over? Do you think everyone would accept Christ then? How about God? What things did He command the Israelites to do in the OT? Did He say love everyone and just sin along with them and worship false gods because if you don't, people will one day hate Christians? There is only one reason a person does not accept Christ. They are rebellious. Not everyone who says they are a Christian is actually a believer.....but those who are, recognize the falseness of saying that believers are the reason that people reject Christ as their Savior. There are quite a few people who have and do reject Christ because of the actions of Christians. People look at Christians and the way they act is not in keeping with their words, thus they are deemed Hippocrates and as such are rejected. If they believe that being a Christian is what they see in the Christian they reject everything about it. Let me ask you, do you think God is capable of taking care of what happens on earth? If so why would you as a Christian be concerned about stopping the Nazis? Well that's what they say. But on the day they stand before the One they rejected, do you suppose God will excuse them because they say, "Well, I was going to accept Christ, but Johnny didn't act like what I thought a Christian should be, so I didn't." Don't you see the fallacy in that excuse? If someone says Christians keep me from Christ, then they are admitting they know how a Christian should act and they are admitting that God is really better than that. God Himself says that those who reject Him are without excuse. Humanistic ideas of God tend to side with humans.....who do not think like God and who do not believe what God says. First of all, salvation is available to whosoever will. Second, I nowhere in scripture are we told that a human being is responsible for accepts Christ. that, is the work of God through His Spirit. It is obvious that not everyone who says they are a Christina actually are Christians. Now you say there are quite a few people who reject salvation as though you know who they are. That is an excuse and I have heard it myself. Again, they are simply admitting they actually have an idea of what a Christian should be. Christians are not perfect and will never be perfect until that which is perfect is come...and that does not mean cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now for this: Hippocrates was actually a Greek physician. I suppose you mean hypocrite. So, in that economy, if someone who refuses Christ calls a Christian a hypocrite the Christian actually becomes a hypocrite? I don't think so. That would make God a liar and the Bible untrue. They called Christ a liar and a blasphemer. Did that make Him one? The world does not love Christians or Christ. Does God come down and take care of business for us or do we act on His behalf? Seriously, are we supposed to think about heaven all day or actually live the life we have? Christ drove the money changers out of the temple area. The philosopy (because it is not scripture) that you appear to embrace, would have Him do nothing at all. As a Christian, I am actually far more concerned with the misapplication of scripture and the apparent lack on the part of many to fight spiritual battles. Hitler embodied the spirit of anti-Christ and embraced a pseudo Christian religion on one hand and seances and special knowledge on the other. A little history goes a long way. Pacifism is not a Christian concept. In Revelation, we see Jesus leading the army of God against the devil. Why do you suppose that is? Shouldn't Jesus just live and let live? One more thing....I'm way too young to have fought Hitler.