Steve_S

1Ti 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1Ti 2:15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. I have an impossible time accepting that this is a cultural designation. He goes all the way back to creation with his appeal to why - Adam and Eve. If it is cultural then the obvious conclusion to draw is that the only single culture in which the relationship between Adam and Eve is relevant is the one in which Timothy was preaching when Paul sent him this letter. People may say this is an opinion of paul and that's a fair thing to say, but even if that is the case, this is the "opinion" of a spirit filled chosen apostle of the living God (though I think it is more than just an opinion). One would do very well to follow the advice of such a man, wouldn't you think? I have to say, the verses mean what they mean, regardless of what the church thinks they mean. Apart from that, though, you say the "church" has already decided that these verses were not meant for every culture. I've noticed you've said this more than once. Could you please give me a short list of the major denominations that comprise this church that has made the above decision you reference?

Any further personal attacks in this thread will result in those responsible being removed.

They only believe what Mohammed said regarding Abraham and Moses. In other words, the version of Moses they believe is the one present in the Koran, not the Torah (Moses is the most mentioned person in the Koran apparently). In other words, Moses was targeted highly by the Koran, mostly to revise what had actually happened. They do not deny that these men spoke for God, but the version they present of these men is not the version that the actual scriptures present, it's the perverted versions that the Koran presents. They believe a *version* of them that existed and spoke from God. This cannot be emphasized enough. They have a false understanding of the prophets because the version of the prophets they are presented with is from the Koran, not the bible. They also have a false Christ. Their Jesus cannot be the Son of God because their book says God has no Son. Jesus was explicit that there would be false Christs. The Christ that the Koran presents is a false Christ, not the real Jesus. That also must be emphasized. Jesus claimed to be God. To the Islamic mind, Jesus would've never claimed to be God, because it's not possible that Jesus was God - and Jesus was a prophet who would not lie. So in their mind, that (and other claims made about Jesus both by the writers of the gospels and by Jesus himself) was made up, thus making the gospels entirely untrustworthy. The only version of Jesus they trust comes from the Koran as a result - never the actual gospels themselves. They believe they are worshiping the the version of god that the version of Abraham the Koran presents worshiped. Again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, when you or I say God or even Abraham, we mean something different than a Muslim. Their beliefs are based on what is presented in the Koran. The Koran basically rewrites the Torah. They would say they worship the God of Abraham, yes, but they would mean they worship the Koranic version of god that the Koranic version of Abraham worshiped. These differences seem semantic, but they are not. It's important to understand that all of their ideas of these people only come from their writings - mostly the Koran, but also probably the Hadith to a degree. They do not read the Torah as a companion to the Koran. They do not read the gospels to see what Jesus said. Their entire idea of all Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Jesus, all of them, only comes from their texts - never from the actual texts. They avoid the actual texts, probably because there are truths there that would destroy their belief in their false religion.

It's transliterated in English, so that name is spelled 50 different ways and I probably spell it differently every time, lol, not even on purpose. They believe a false narrative of God and Christ would probably be the best way to put it, but I don't believe they are worshiping God in any capacity. They don't actually accept the Torah as inspired. They believe the Torah was corrupted (I don't even think they would call it the Torah). They think any text kept by Jews or Christians has been entirely polluted, which is pretty absurd when you look at some of the textual agreements, particularly when the dead sea scrolls are brought into play with a book like Isaiah, of which there was a complete copy found that was shown to have went virtually unchanged through multiple copies over the course of seven or eight centuries. They have basically been led into idolatry by a false prophet. Their idea of who God is is not who God has revealed Himself to be in any capacity. As such, they are not worshiping God. They are worshiping their prophets idea of a god.

I didn't intimate that they believe that prophecy begins with Mohammad. I said that their *faith* starts with mohammad, which was a response to you saying their faith starts with believing that Allah is the God of the old testament. That is not where their faith begins. Their faith begins with Mohammad's teachings, nowhere else. They believe what he said, above all others. They are not taught about Moses through any interpretive lens that is not Koranic. That's my ultimate point.

I said he revealed Himself to everyone in the world, and He did. The jews were given a spirit of stupor because of their disobedience. The idea that God will ultimately give people over to their sin consistent throughout the scriptures in the old and new testament. Pharaoh is an example of this. He hardened his heart through the first two plagues. In other words, he declared, through his actions, that he is against God. After that (except for once I believe), it was God who hardened pharaoh's heart. When I said that Jesus has revealed to all that He is God, I meant that He has done so through His word. It is no secret that Jesus is God and Jesus made it no secret in the scriptures. The lack of acceptance of such is an individual responsibility. It's not corporate.

I would argue that Muslim faith does not start at the God of the old testament, but at Muhammad. They believe that Muhammad is the prophet and what he said is supreme. The only things they consider outside of his specific writings are the Haditha, which are basically said to be records of his exposition of his specific writings and daily practices for muslims according to him. They give no credence to the Torah. They think the promises were through Ishmael, not Isaac, for instance. Muhammad is a false prophet and their religion is a prophet-based religion above all else, therefore their religion is entirely false.

Romans 11 is probably the biggest singular new testament exposition on the disposition of God's people, Israel. The above quoted verse has absolutely nothing to do with muslims. It's speaking of Jews: Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Rom 11:8 Just as it is written: "GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."

I would have to strongly disagree with this. It has been revealed to them and everyone else in the world that Christ is God and not a simple prophet, by Christ Himself. Muslims, even nice, well centered, moral, non-jihadist muslims, needs Jesus just like everyone else does. Their false beliefs about Jesus are just as lethal to them from a spiritual perspective as the belief of anyone else who rejects Christ. In short, they are believing lies told them by a false prophet. The fact that there are tidbits of truth mixed in is part and parcel. Virtually every false prophet who has ever existed mixes kernels of truth with falsehoods, some more, some less. In Mohammad's case, it's a whole lot of falsehood and very little truth.

Please refrain from getting personal in this thread going forward.

The problem is the lack of value placed on the human life in the first place. Again, I'm not saying this is happening, just that when life is devalued in such a way as this *anything* is possible. All you have to do is look around at our culture, right now, to see that.

Not at all. I'm saying that on that day and on every day in the united states there is a mass murder of babies, so pretending like such a thing is impossible from a moral perspective or that there are too few people willing to kill babies for such a thing to happen is absolute nonsense.

I'm not speaking to other-one's claim being right or wrong, but i would simply point out that this country allows (indeed largely supports) the murder on average of somewhere around 1700 babies or so every single day of the week. Through that lens, such claims are not all that outlandish to me.

Gentile Warrior has been removed from the thread.

It would be helpful if things were reported so moderation knew that there was a necessity to moderate! To make it simple enough for all involved though. Any getting personal going forward will result in the one who does so being immediately removed from this thread upon our discovery of it.

Please refrain from personal attacks such as this in the future. Doing so will result in your removal from the thread.

This is betting a bit personal. Please stick more closely to the topic rather than the person.

This is far outside the bounds of our Terms of Service. Please remember to keep it civil and debate the subject, not the person. Things such as this are why people are removed from threads and why threads are closed.

Mainly because BB knows he is supposed to post things like that in the Soteriology forum, but also because he said he just copied it from another thread, which makes it redundant. Firstly, there is already an equivalent post on the forums, which you admit yourself in the first paragraph. Secondly, what exactly are you implying?

I moved the topic here because this is a more appropriate forum.

What specific scriptural support do you have for this statement? I'm quite interested to know. This post was reported as an insult to the president. I'm of the mind to leave this up - but only if this is your valid theological opinion and you can demonstrate that you have derived this from scriptural studies (even if you're wrong and I am positive you are on purely theological grounds!). I'm not asking you to be right and I will disagree with you, I am certain, but if you can show where your studies led you to believe this, I am okay with this post.

I believe this thread has ran its course. Lots of getting personal now.

I removed some a post and some responses to the original post. While not a personal attack, suggesting something like was suggested is way out of bounds.

This is far too personal. Please refrain from such in the future or you will be removed from the thread.

I certainly hope you won't, because this is a violation of the terms of service. Doing so again will result in your removal from this thread. Please keep that in mind going forward.