2012

[OneLight]

No on knows the exact timing except God (according to Jesus).

JESUS really said no one knew the exact time at the time HE said it. HE never said no one would ever know the day or the hour, HE just said no one did at that time.

That is twisting scripture. Is not God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? By your words, every piece of scripture holds no water for today, for it was written for those that lived back in the day and has no truthful meaning for any of us today.

Actually it is twisting scripture to say that Jesus said no one will ever know the day or hour because that is not what He said. He said exactly what kross said He said that no one knew the day and hour. He never said no one will ever know the day or hour. Matter of fact He went on to say that the day of the 2nd coming would be like the days of Noah, the wicked didn't know the flood was coming but Noah knew exactly what day it would come, Thus will it been when the son of man comes. the wicked will be taken off guard the righteous will be ready and waiting.

Matthew 24:36-39

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Wish I would have read this before I replied.

You quote and agree on a verse, but do not see ... Verse 36 tells us. When Jesus said no man, He meant it. Are we not a man?

Actually it is you that reads yet does not see. He said no mans knows (present tense). He never said no man will ever know. To say that He said something He didn't say would be, hmm how did you put it, twisting scripture.

Oh, I see. So, the very next day someone could know. That, is the twist in your understanding. Tell me then, can either of you tell me the day and hour? Many people have tried, but have failed and proven to be false.

[eve]

An ancient civilization created a calender, I believe it was the Mayans, that happens to end in the year 2012. For that reason, many believe that the world will end in 2012. The problem is, thats only 4 years away, and the tribulation itself will last seven years. How do they overlook that? Shiloh62

2012 is about the End of The Church Age (lasting about 2000 odd years), not about the end of the world.

The Mayans learnt to create the calendar from the Watchers (referred to in the Book of Enoch) who were fallen angels who were there from the beginning watching God creating the earth and Man.

Here is my understanding: If Daniel's Last Seven Years were to commence either sometime in 2009 or 2010 and end in either 2015 or 2016, counting down 3.5 years (aka time, times and half a time) will both give the year 2012 as the end of age. In other words, the world may end around 2016.

As I've previously posted here, Daniel's Last 7 Years is not 7 years of Tribulation, but the first 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation. The next or last 3.5 years is Jacob's Trouble, and also the Wrath of God.

So it's not wholly 7 years of tribulation that we'll have.

Also, we do not know the hour or day of the rapture as Jesus said. But since we are given to know the season (as in the Signs of the Times), might we also be given to know the year and even the month? Just not the exact time of day!

Edited February 17, 2009 by eve

[OneLight]

No I do not know the day or hour, however Luke 21:28 tell us when the tribulation has begun to reach its peak then look up for our redemption draws near, also in Matthew 24 the verse just preceding the one verse you cling to that no one knows the day or hour it tell us that when we see all these things begin to come to pass we know His coming is at the doors, and Revelation tells us that exactly 1260 day after the anti christ take over Christ will return. So although I do not believe that we at this moment can predict the day of the Lords coming. I do believe once we are knee deep in the Tribulation it will become more and more clear when His return will be.

Thank you for being honest about the day and hour. I have no issue at all, in fact I agree, with almost everything you have said about knowing the season we are in. Still, I don't believe we will know exactly when the anti-chirst will take over, nor will we know when it does happen. We are given enough information to know when He is at the door, ready to come, but not enough to ever know the day or hour. Why else would He tell us to look up, for the time draws near? All He ever taught described a time of watching. Why watch if we knew the time?

[Bold Believer]

No on knows the exact timing except God (according to Jesus).

JESUS really said no one knew the exact time at the time HE said it. HE never said no one would ever know the day or the hour, HE just said no one did at that time.

That is twisting scripture. Is not God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? By your words, every piece of scripture holds no water for today, for it was written for those that lived back in the day and has no truthful meaning for any of us today.

No, what I am saying is that people are reading into what JESUS stated. HE never said that we would never know. HE gave us signs and seasons.

HE never said that we would never know. If you can show me where JESUS said we would never know, then I will agree with you. I am not saying that anyone will know or that anyone does know. The scripture is JESUS talking to people before HIS death and the giving of the HOLY SPIRIT. If GOD wants to reveal the day and the hour to someone, or all of us, through the HOLY SPIRIT, this scripture does not say HE can not do that. It does not say no one will ever know, it only states that no one knew at that time.

That is not twisting scripture, that is taking scripture for exactly what it says. HE never said we would never know.

He gave us general things that would occur about the time of his coming. We're seeing them even now. Noahic level violence. Sodom level homosexuality and immorality, and yet life as usual...people get married, give their daughters in marriage and la-de-da until Kaboom. (This is one reason I personally don't buy into the whole tribulation/mark of the beast futuristic scenario, that would make it TOO obvious, when Jesus' words tend to make it out to be more less life as usual.)

[OneLight]

I get absolutely fed up with people saying other people are "Twisting Scripture" when they bring a different understanding to these discussions. It is a shameful tactic that I am sick of.

The phrase "twisting scripture" is just that, a phrase, meaning that what is being said about a piece of scripture is different then it was meant to be in order to give it a different meaning, fitting it to what someone wants it to mean. It is not a tactic, but a phrase. Sorry if you don't like that phrase. I will try not to use that phrase when discussing a matter that we have different opinions about. I will be more direct with you.

When Christ said that no man knows, he meant no man. Not no man that I am talking to, but no man period. Will we ever have a better idea as to when? Yes, Will we know the day or hour? No.

[OneLight]

When Christ said that no man knows, he meant no man. Not no man that I am talking to, but no man period. Will we ever have a better idea as to when? Yes, Will we know the day or hour? No.

The point you are not getting is Jesus never said we will never know.

Let's take a closer look at the scripture, the words and the meaning of these words.

Matthew 24:36 (King James Version)

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

knoweth:

Strong's Number: 1492

Eido

1. to see

1. to perceive with the eyes

2. to perceive by any of the senses

3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover

4. to see

1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything

2. to pay attention, observe

3. to see about something

2. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it

1. to inspect, examine

2. to look at, behold

1. to experience any state or condition

2. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 3. to know

1. to know of anything

2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive

1. of any fact

2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning

3. to know how, to be skilled in

3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to

no:

Strong's Number: 3762

Oudeis

1. no one, nothing

The whole phrase is seen in this form of communication:

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5758 Tense, Voice and Mood

Word Tense

Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

Word Mood

Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

With this information, I bring to you that no one will ever have knowledge of the day or hour, and does not need to be repeated, being said once and for all.

[ayin jade]

The Mayans learnt to create the calendar from the Watchers (referred to in the Book of Enoch) who were fallen angels who were there from the beginning watching God creating the earth and Man.

Mythology, not the word of God.

[Abigailwc]

I am eager for the end to come, however, so many people need salvation. He has a plan for those who are not saved yet but will come to Him in the future. I must forgo my wishes and let the perfect plan of God Almighty take place.

Praise God!

[EricH]

When Christ said that no man knows, he meant no man. Not no man that I am talking to, but no man period. Will we ever have a better idea as to when? Yes, Will we know the day or hour? No.

The point you are not getting is Jesus never said we will never know.

Let's take a closer look at the scripture, the words and the meaning of these words.

Matthew 24:36 (King James Version)

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

knoweth:

Strong's Number: 1492

Eido

1. to see

1. to perceive with the eyes

2. to perceive by any of the senses

3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover

4. to see

1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything

2. to pay attention, observe

3. to see about something

2. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it

1. to inspect, examine

2. to look at, behold

1. to experience any state or condition

2. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 3. to know

1. to know of anything

2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive

1. of any fact

2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning

3. to know how, to be skilled in

3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to

no:

Strong's Number: 3762

Oudeis

1. no one, nothing

The whole phrase is seen in this form of communication:

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5758 Tense, Voice and Mood

Word Tense

Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

Word Mood

Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

With this information, I bring to you that no one will ever have knowledge of the day or hour, and does not need to be repeated, being said once and for all.

Good try Onelight but I am far from convinced by your effort. I am not saying that anyone will ever know the day or hour, what I am say is that Jesus did not say we wouldn't, and I am sticking to that opinion even after your diligent word study.

And what is that opinion based upon? Especially given the evidence presented above

[Bold Believer]

When Christ said that no man knows, he meant no man. Not no man that I am talking to, but no man period. Will we ever have a better idea as to when? Yes, Will we know the day or hour? No.

The point you are not getting is Jesus never said we will never know.

Let's take a closer look at the scripture, the words and the meaning of these words.

Matthew 24:36 (King James Version)

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

knoweth:

Strong's Number: 1492

Eido

1. to see

1. to perceive with the eyes

2. to perceive by any of the senses

3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover

4. to see

1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything

2. to pay attention, observe

3. to see about something

2. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it

1. to inspect, examine

2. to look at, behold

1. to experience any state or condition

2. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 3. to know

1. to know of anything

2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive

1. of any fact

2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning

3. to know how, to be skilled in

3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to

no:

Strong's Number: 3762

Oudeis

1. no one, nothing

The whole phrase is seen in this form of communication:

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5758 Tense, Voice and Mood

Word Tense

Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

Word Mood

Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

With this information, I bring to you that no one will ever have knowledge of the day or hour, and does not need to be repeated, being said once and for all.

Good try Onelight but I am far from convinced by your effort. I am not saying that anyone will ever know the day or hour, what I am say is that Jesus did not say we wouldn't, and I am sticking to that opinion even after your diligent word study.

And what is that opinion based upon? Especially given the evidence presented above

It is based on what Jesus said as He said it without adding or subtracting anything from it.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only

It says what it says and that is all it says. No one knows the day or hour not that no one would ever know. If you read through some of my previous post I have given scriptural evidence that it may be possible that the tribulational saints will know the timing of Christ return.

You're assuming a fact not in evidence. What if the historical position is correct and the tribulation was the events of 70AD? In Acts the disciples are told that it is not for them to know the times which the Father has appointed regarding the restoration of the kingdom, and in Ch 3, Jesus will NOT come until all things are restored to a pre-fall state (apokatastasis). There is no Scriptural evidence that the day and hour will ever be revealed because only the Father knows and has chosen not reveal it to the Son. Why then would He reveal it to US?