Alcohol

[anitarose]

I Cor 5:11-13But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one,

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, NOR DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

................

It is quite clear by scripture that if alcohol becomes the lord of your life, you will die in your sins, even if at one time you were saved

I do not rebut what you say to win a point...I just believe many here do not realize that DRUNKARDS will not enter the kingdom of God according to clear text of scripture.

Oh that I would wish I were wrong and would see my uncle in heaven..but I am a realist and know better because of what the scripture teaches.

So are you telling me that, because I'm recovering and I have asked forgiveness, I am STILL going to go to hell because I'm a "drunkard"??? I don't think that's YOUR place to judge. I think that's G-d's place.

I resent your innuendoes and I suggest you moderate your tone a bit, sir. I find it quite insulting.

a.

[Servant54]

LadyC said..

"the families where kids grow up being taught that a drop of alcohol is a grave sin. neither of these two types of family teach the kids any respect for alcohol. either the kids are taught no self control at all, or the forbidden fruit becomes so appealing that parents don't stand much of a chance against the peer pressure their kids face."

I say.....

I gave my testimony and then LadyC changed her tune and corrected herself and decreased her estimate from "any respect" down 10% to " probably" 90% of the ones i've known abused alcohol at some point.

Of course we all know different people and that influences what we think the rest of the world is like..all I am trying to say is your coloring every abstainer with a broad brush as some legalist who kids are going to go off the deep end for absolute sure is just not true.....

its a fabrication!

please Lady C...give me a break.

[Servant54]

I Cor 5:11-13But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one,

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, NOR DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

................

It is quite clear by scripture that if alcohol becomes the lord of your life, you will die in your sins, even if at one time you were saved

I do not rebut what you say to win a point...I just believe many here do not realize that DRUNKARDS will not enter the kingdom of God according to clear text of scripture.

Oh that I would wish I were wrong and would see my uncle in heaven..but I am a realist and know better because of what the scripture teaches.

So are you telling me that, because I'm recovering and I have asked forgiveness, I am STILL going to go to hell because I'm a "drunkard"??? I don't think that's YOUR place to judge. I think that's G-d's place.

I resent your innuendos and I suggest you moderate your tone a bit, sir. I find it quite insulting.

a.

I do not remember where I commented on your life. I was talking about my uncle, he was not "recovering", he was practicing drunkeness and loving it and bragging about it and getting others to do the same. He was a drunks drunk.

You resent my innuendos because of a mistake on your part assuming I am talking about any other situation besides my uncle.

Your situation sounds nothing like my uncle's situation.

I love you and hope the best for you and if you are struggling with a life long habit and falling down seven times and rising back up you my friend are a righteous person and will hear "Enter thou in thy good and faithful servant" at the end of your life.

There is an eternity of difference between someone practicing sin and loving it and someone falling back into sin and hating it...the difference is heaven and hell.

[Smalcald]

I have honestly seen both. I have sure seen many families who drank no alcohol due to their faith, in large part Southern Baptist, who indeed did very well and were grounded in college and did not began drinking. I have also seen the opposite happen. But I think if a teen or young adult wants to rebel, they will find things to rebel with that works for them. What better way for a Southern Baptist kid to rebel than to get drunk! But you know, what better way for a Catholic teen to rebel than to have sex outside of marriage and on and on, I don't think we can say for sure it has to do with abstaining or not in the home.

I do think we need to really consider how we view alcohol though as it's abuse is obviously very dangerous and sinful. But I do not think or believe that the decision to have a glass of wine or not is some sort of cornerstone of our faith or our morality. It does not divide the world into "drinkers" and non drinkers. I have never seen this attitude before, is it a southern thing?

[Servant54]

Servant - It sounds to me like you've had some serious things happen in your family as a result of abusing alcohol. Like, LadyC, your relatives simply don't lose their salvation because they sin - God is not going to let go of them simply because they've abused alcohol. I think perhaps you have judged them as being lost - but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Abuse of anything - drugs, alcohol, money, sex addiction, gambling, etc. can lead to unhealthy patterns of lifestyle - but it doesn't cause God to withdraw His Love or Salvation. I think the Christian who has fallen in their Walk with God needs to re-evaluate and repent, but I would never say they 'lost their salvation' - that's not for us to decide.

I Cor 5:11-13But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one,

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, NOR DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

................

It is quite clear by scripture that if alcohol becomes the lord of your life, you will die in your sins, even if at one time you were saved

I do not rebut what you say to win a point...I just believe many here do not realize that DRUNKARDS will not enter the kingdom of God according to clear text of scripture.

Oh that I would wish I were wrong and would see my uncle in heaven..but I am a realist and know better because of what the scripture teaches.

I see a condecending tone working it's way into your posts, and I would attempt to moderate it. Please remember that you are not the final authority on this subject and no one has to accept your opinions. And so far, that's all you have given is opinions.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin, and to claim such is false, and a mis-use of scripture. Nowhere does the Bible say that drinking alcohol is a sin. It says being a drunkard is a sin, and the two are not the same thing. Each time you use scripture that speaks to the abuse of alcohol, you only re-enforce the point that drinking is not a sin.

This is the second time you have mentioned your uncle and claimed he was not saved. This is 100% against the TOS and I would request that you not do it again. Only God knows the man's heart and whether he is in heaven or not. You do not. You can speculate and make guesses, but you are judging his heart and you are in no position to do so.

I think IF I claimed some relative died unsaved it would be a speculation or a guess would it not? Of course I am guessing or of course it is my opinion. I can not have an opinion on such things?

My bible says I am to judge a tree by its fruits and if it bares good fruits then it is a good tree and if it bares the fruits of unrighteousness it is not.

Judging someone probably went to hell is a whole different thing then judging someone to hell.

If we are to save a generation from going to hell we better know for absolutely positively what sends them there.

So IF a relative of mine was a drunk at the end of his life, drunks according to scripture shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Your call.

You say drinking alcohol is not a sin where is your scripture?

I have a scripture that says it is Prov 23:31

Are you say that ONLY "being a drunkard" is a sin? That a saint can get drunk and it is not as sin as long as he does not become a drunkard?

Again I apologize to anyone who feel anything I have said sounds offensive or haughty or of any unChrist like nature. It is not my intentions to break rules or any such thing.

[Believer1997]

Servant...

You may want to counsel with someone about your questions regarding alcohol, etc. You have judged that your relative went to hell based on his alcoholism. I do not know how you know that unequivocally, you cannot know that beyond a doubt.... I simply do not think any of us can pretend to know things of that nature. You have been presented many scriptural verses about wine and have chosen to ignore all of them and lamblast others instead. I pray you soon have peace. Blessings.

[Servant54]

Servant...

You may want to counsel with someone about your questions regarding alcohol, etc. You have judged that your relative went to hell based on his alcoholism. I do not know how you know that unequivocally, you cannot know that beyond a doubt.... I simply do not think any of us can pretend to know things of that nature. You have been presented many scriptural verses about wine and have chosen to ignore all of them and lamblast others instead. I pray you soon have peace. Blessings.

I am not sure where you get the idea that I "unequivocally" believe what you are say. I am only making an educated guess. I believe God is for us making educated guess on matters. I have been saved 35 years and made many.

The reason I have chose to ignore the scriptural verses is because of the wrong interpretation that has accompanied them, I have not ignored all of them I change my opinion on two of them..one was Jesus rejected vinegar not wine. I now believe Jesus rejected vinegar not alcoholic wine. That is why I enjoy these discussions, I am always willing to change when brought truth or I am wrong..I have nothing to loose.

I understand where you are coming from being from the opposing side of the agruement..I guess we will need to agree to dis agree and leave the rest in God's hands. Amen?

Peace and blessing to you also.

[Guest LadyC]

LadyC said..

"the families where kids grow up being taught that a drop of alcohol is a grave sin. neither of these two types of family teach the kids any respect for alcohol. either the kids are taught no self control at all, or the forbidden fruit becomes so appealing that parents don't stand much of a chance against the peer pressure their kids face."

I say.....

I gave my testimony and then LadyC changed her tune and corrected herself and decreased her estimate from "any respect" down 10% to " probably" 90% of the ones i've known abused alcohol at some point.

Of course we all know different people and that influences what we think the rest of the world is like..all I am trying to say is your coloring every abstainer with a broad brush as some legalist who kids are going to go off the deep end for absolute sure is just not true.....

its a fabrication!

please Lady C...give me a break.

i didn't change my tune about anything. i clarified for your sake the fact that i was generalizing. i never indicated in my initial post that every single abstaining home had those results.

facts are facts, and you can call it fabrication if it makes you feel superior, but what i said is accurate the vast majority of the time. and of the people i've known in my life, well, i was being generous when i said 90%.

i was also not just talking about "abstaining homes", i was pretty clear that i was referring to homes that were legalistic and insisting incorrectly that any alcohol is a sin.

servant, you've said so many things on so many different topics in this thread that are, in some cases, twisted way out of context, and in other cases, just so contrary to biblical truth, that i don't even know why any of us are still trying to reason with you.

[other one]

Servant - It sounds to me like you've had some serious things happen in your family as a result of abusing alcohol. Like, LadyC, your relatives simply don't lose their salvation because they sin - God is not going to let go of them simply because they've abused alcohol. I think perhaps you have judged them as being lost - but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Abuse of anything - drugs, alcohol, money, sex addiction, gambling, etc. can lead to unhealthy patterns of lifestyle - but it doesn't cause God to withdraw His Love or Salvation. I think the Christian who has fallen in their Walk with God needs to re-evaluate and repent, but I would never say they 'lost their salvation' - that's not for us to decide.

I Cor 5:11-13But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one,

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, NOR DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

................

It is quite clear by scripture that if alcohol becomes the lord of your life, you will die in your sins, even if at one time you were saved

I do not rebut what you say to win a point...I just believe many here do not realize that DRUNKARDS will not enter the kingdom of God according to clear text of scripture.

Oh that I would wish I were wrong and would see my uncle in heaven..but I am a realist and know better because of what the scripture teaches.

I see a condecending tone working it's way into your posts, and I would attempt to moderate it. Please remember that you are not the final authority on this subject and no one has to accept your opinions. And so far, that's all you have given is opinions.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin, and to claim such is false, and a mis-use of scripture. Nowhere does the Bible say that drinking alcohol is a sin. It says being a drunkard is a sin, and the two are not the same thing. Each time you use scripture that speaks to the abuse of alcohol, you only re-enforce the point that drinking is not a sin.

This is the second time you have mentioned your uncle and claimed he was not saved. This is 100% against the TOS and I would request that you not do it again. Only God knows the man's heart and whether he is in heaven or not. You do not. You can speculate and make guesses, but you are judging his heart and you are in no position to do so.

I think IF I claimed some relative died unsaved it would be a speculation or a guess would it not? Of course I am guessing or of course it is my opinion. I can not have an opinion on such things?

My bible says I am to judge a tree by its fruits and if it bares good fruits then it is a good tree and if it bares the fruits of unrighteousness it is not.

Judging someone probably went to hell is a whole different thing then judging someone to hell.

If we are to save a generation from going to hell we better know for absolutely positively what sends them there.

So IF a relative of mine was a drunk at the end of his life, drunks according to scripture shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Your call.

You say drinking alcohol is not a sin where is your scripture?

I have a scripture that says it is Prov 23:31

Are you say that ONLY "being a drunkard" is a sin? That a saint can get drunk

and it is not as sin as long as he does not become a drunkard?

Again I apologize to anyone who feel anything I have said sounds offensive or haughty or of any unChrist like nature. It is not my intentions to break rules or any such thing.

Actually it would depend on what that person did while he/she was drunk. (not that I am actually promoting getting drunk..... far be it) But just because one gets drunk does not make one a drunkard unless one persists in such actions. People who have self control can drink occasionally and not become drunkards...... even people who have genetic problems with alcohol can do that. Is it smart....... probably no, but to call something a sin that is not a sin is also very dangerous.

BTW the wine in Proverbs 23:31 to a person who is familiar with making wine knows that cup is infected with a very toxic bacteria that usually results in death if injested. Go to the origional language to fully understand what it's talking about. The going down smooth part is not what it's really talking about in later translations. It's the moving itself alright and sparkling that should make you pour it out and whatever it came in and whatever you poured it into. You will find that terminlogy in the KJV.

[Guest yod]

Speaking of a Nazerite, it is interesting that they were looked up to in their society. A total abstainer looked up to.

Lets see who abstained... Nazerites like Sampson and John who ministered and were used in high offices as leaders. Remember what Jesus said of John?

Kings were supposed to be abstainers..they were leaders and looked up to.

There were priests that were abstainers and looked up to.

The Recabites were just a family that would did not drink and God honored their young men by how well they obey their father who commanded them not to Jer35. another positive view of abstainers.

wow...so much misunderstanding of the law of vows in all of that. Not sure where to begin but a Nazarite vow has many aspects. They also don't cut their hair. Shall we now make some doctrine about long hair making one more holy?

You simply can not compare "drinking wine" to abusing alcohol. Those are 2 distinctly separate issues. That would be like saying every handgun owner was a murderer.

Then you come to the New Testament and we see elders/bishops are supposed to be abstainers and are leaders and highly looked up to.

Are you intentionally misquoting the Word? Because that ain't "it"

It says that they should not be "given to much wine". That seems pretty obvious. There is no requirement that they abstain whatsoever. The only requirement is that they not be abusers of wine.

So why is it that people who desire to be abstainers seem to get no respect now a days...but are in fact mocked by many or called legalistic.

that is the pot calling the kettle black, bro.

No one here has ever said that you must drink alcohol. We have made no requirements upon a man's conscience.

The only legalists on this subject are those who say :

21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.