Abortion Doctor shot at CHURCH????

[nebula]

the views of bigots who are more outraged by the acceptance of a person at church than with a person who professes to be Christian who takes a gun and shoots someone in cold blood.

First of all, it is not known that the gunman professed to be a Christian.

Secondly, I don't think anyone here is defending the man. If you believe anyone is defending him would you please link us to the quote that praises him?

Third, "bigots"?

[nebula]

Which is why if we are pro-life we can see the huge damage this guy has done to the movement.

Yeah, I worry about this, too.

I was looking up the FoxNews website to see if there was any new info on the man, and it appears as if this man has been a trouble-maker for years.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523709,00.html

[Fez]

"Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person"

Blindseeker, I can relate to that 100% and thank you for the scripture. It is beginning to look like, to me, that this church was complicit in it's actions (and I asked in my post, if this was really a church, or a church in name only) and by not following the Word, has brought this deed down upon themselves. The Lord works in mysterious ways does He not?

But then again Mike has a good point as well. Where do we draw the line as to who we want in our churches? We are all sinners, and there is no top ten sin "list" (ok the 10 commandments, but you understand what I am saying).

However maybe the line is drawn if a person, knowing Jesus and attending church, continues in this sin. Say for instance an adulterer. We have people who have committed adultry in our church, they have confessed, repented and have changed. If they continued while attending church, then I think the quoted scripture above applies 100%.

It will be interesting to see if this "church" survives this episode, and if it does, what form the future church might take.

Would the Lord use someone to murder someone else that is committing a greivious sin such as abortion over and over? I don't know, and again can't even to begin to second guess the Lords will in a matter like this. But my heart tells me no, not unless this entire thing was about the shooter and not the doctor at all. Again I cannot second guess the Lord's will.

Fascinating how one post can lead to a thread that stretches us in our knowledge and thinking, and teaches us at the same time. God is good!

[nebula]

What would Jesus have done?

Mark 11:12-21

12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'? 17 But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'" 18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

19 When evening came, they went out of the city. 20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

What would He have said about abortion?

Matt 2:18 - "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more."

What would He have said about the abortion doctors murder?

Luke 13:1-5

1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

I don't know if this is a church, or one that professes to be one. I don't know the heart of the people in the church. I don't know if the church, guided by the Holy Spirit was trying to change the doctors sinful ways. I don't know if the church accepted him as he was and ignored the fact of what he was doing, and stood for (that would be wrong in any situation). I am not the judge, the Lord is.

Read the article I posted above - there are quotes from members of the congregation. They hated the abortion protesters and thought well of the doctor.

What would He have said to the church allowing the doctor to attend?

Rev. 2:20-29

20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. 24 Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

What would Jesus have said about forgiveness?

Matt. 18:6 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

No forgiveness for the offender?

And if people who profess to be Christians walked the walk Jesus teaches us to, no one professing to follow Him would pick up a gun and kill someone in the name of our Faith.

So far, I have not seen any claim that the man who murdered the doctor professed to be a Christian.

[BlindSeeker]

My biggest problem with "pro life" is it is not always pro the righteousness of God. Yes, abortion is wrong and the murder of the closest to absolute innocence in humanity, but many "pro lifers" are simply people who have embraced "a cause" and are bent on promoting it at any cost. They will join hand and hand with any other "pro lifer" regardless their faith or creed.

We are to be pro God, not pro life. We are to be preachers of righteousness and not militants against sin and sinners.

The man was wrong who killed the doctor, but that does not mean God

[OneLight]

Here is a link to the Kansas City Fox News affiliate. Link This site has more information and videos.

This saddens me in so many ways. It is hard to put into words, and I have tried to type my feelings many times, but just can't get the words right. Free will verses His word. Sin, no matter what it is, brings with it many emotions as we all sift through the facts. God Bless us all as the world turns away from Him more and more each day. I pray that His own are not discouraged as this happens.

[nebula]

Would the Lord use someone to murder someone else that is committing a greivious sin such as abortion over and over?

Here are some things to consider:

1 Kings 22:15-28

15 Then he came to the king; and the king said to him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall we refrain?" And he answered him, "Go and prosper, for the Lord will deliver it into the hand of the king!"

16 So the king said to him, "How many times shall I make you swear that you tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?"

17 Then he said, "I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And the Lord said, 'These have no master. Let each return to his house in peace.' "

18 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?"

19 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left.

20 And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.

21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.'

22 The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'

23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

24 Now Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near and struck Micaiah on the cheek, and said, "Which way did the spirit from the Lord go from me to speak to you?" 25 And Micaiah said, "Indeed, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide!"

26 So the king of Israel said, "Take Micaiah, and return him to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king's son;

27 and say, 'Thus says the king: "Put this fellow in prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and water of affliction, until I come in peace." ' "

28 But Micaiah said, "If you ever return in peace, the Lord has not spoken by me." And he said, "Take heed, all you people!"

Now I'm not going to claim the Lord ordered the death of Tillman. But I'm not going to claim He didn't either.

The other thing to consider is that there are many prophecies against Israel and Judah for their sin, and the Lord declares He will judge them by sending nations against them. BUT the Lord then declares judgment over those nations for the things they did while attacking Israel and Judah.

Go figure that one out!

[nebula]

My biggest problem with "pro life" is it is not always pro the righteousness of God. Yes, abortion is wrong and the murder of the closest to absolute innocence in humanity, but many "pro lifers" are simply people who have embraced "a cause" and are bent on promoting it at any cost. They will join hand and hand with any other "pro lifer" regardless their faith or creed.

We are to be pro God, not pro life. We are to be preachers of righteousness and not militants against sin and sinners.

The man was wrong who killed the doctor, but that does not mean God

[Matthitjah]

As prediced the Obama Administration has begun to use this unfortunate act of murder to Politicize this issue.

The AG of the United States has sought to order Federal Authorities to guard abortion clinics Nationwide.

The greater issue now will be how they use this to turn our Faith into terrorism and hate speech.

Paraphrasing; " We should never let a good emergency go to waste as a means to further a Political agenda."

[Smalcald]

We have to realize that a good portion of mainline Protestant denominations support abortion rights, this guy went to one of those groups, why would they put him out?

It is very important to read the statement of faith and doctrines of any congregation we attend, it is our responsibility to do that. In today's world a congregation or denomination should have a declarative statement about where they stand on abortion, if they don't it is a problem, a major problem. This is why doctrine is important we must say clearly what we believe as a group and why.