Harming Animals

[Axxman]

All of creation is (in varying degrees) reflective of its creator.

Even in the animal world which operates primarily from instinct, we do find ways in which animals show us things about the Lord. He has left His signature on all of creatures.

I agree....metaphorically. However no animal has ever shown a man anything about the Lord through physical word or deed. It is only through human ability and thought process that anything that an animal does could be considered symbolic. It is only through the supernatural power of God himself that animals could possibly cross that divide.

God has instilled even in His most base creatures a desire to protect life and even sadness when life is taken. It is not uncommon for animals to grieve the death of their owners or even a another pet with whom they were raised. Animals feel not only pain, but happiness, fear, remourse, and these emotions (albeit far more limited in their expression than in man) are as real for them as for us. Cruelty to animals is immoral and would be considered a sin.

Gotta diagree here. You are putting the unique God given qualities of human emotions into animals. Animals do not grieve death in the same way a human does...there is no evidence that they even have that remote capacity. An animals entire life is built around an instinct of survivability. Now do animals express their instinctual well-being or sickness, or unhappiness in unique ways? Of course, all animals do. But that in no way implies that they can react outside of those instincts based on a conscious decision of mind.

Now, for those who say that cruelty to animals is not mentioned in the Bible as a sin: The Bible also does not say that dowsing myself with gasoline and setting myself on fire is a sin either. Does it have to? The Bible does not mention every sin that could possibly be committed. What it does is establish paradigms or frames of reference, which we can judge behavior that the Bible does not address. That means that while the Bible does not directly claim that torturing animals is sinful, there is enough information contained in the Bible that we can extrapolate from the Bible does say to determine what a biblical position is on that topic. We know enough about God that we can accurately determine His position on the matter.

Wouldn't this be why we have so many different religions. Its this type of thinking that requires so many different denominations in the Christian community. "Well, the bible doesn't say it...but we believe it so it must be true...therefore everyone who acts differently is obviously sinning." I won't pick on your example (even though most of us can probably think of multiple verses to cite why killing yourself is a sin) because I think I understand your point. We have all run into people that try to shove their particular brand of scripture 'rules' down everyone else's throat. Its just a bad way to go. If the bible doesn't say harming an animal is a sin...then you can't say it is.

My grandfather used to raise cattle to be slaughtered. I remember watching the fear expressed by animals awaiting slaughter. They could smell death. They could hear anguish by the cattle getting smashed in the head with sledge hammers because not every cow was killed with the first blow. The number of blows it takes to kill a beef cow depends on the strength of the person wielding the hammner.

Seriously...even you can figure out the instincs of animals in this situation. There is no tangible fear of death as you and I understand it by cattle in a slaughterhouse. There is a survival instinct. Their instincts are telling them to get away from the area...not some thought process of a fear of death and the afterlife. I've been in many slaughterhouses as well. I know how cattle and sheep act. There is NO DOUBT that their instincts are at full peak. You would think that their adrenaline and fear would carry them for miles if released. But...if you have ever seen those animals released...they don't run for miles. They run back to the safety of their pen...usually to the water or food. They look around for a second...and go right back to being the dumb animal they were before. Animals have instincts. They sense dangers and threats and comforts.

God gave man dominion over the earth and over the works of His hands. (Gen.1:28; Ps. 8:6) The Bible places a high premium on moderate, responsible behavior in all things, and cursory reading of the book of Proverbs will teach you that. With dominion over creation comes responsibility for how the dominion is carried out. A Godly person will not irresponsibly harm animals for sport or cause them unnecessary pain for any reason.

I mostly agree with your comments here with two small exceptions. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about a person's Godliness without adequate scriptural support that what they are doing is sinful. I also don't think that 'moderation' is the standard that God has...is it Godly...or not? (Moderation is a whole 'nother topic though...)

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

All of creation is (in varying degrees) reflective of its creator.

Even in the animal world which operates primarily from instinct, we do find ways in which animals show us things about the Lord. He has left His signature on all of creatures.

I agree....metaphorically. However no animal has ever shown a man anything about the Lord through physical word or deed. It is only through human ability and thought process that anything that an animal does could be considered symbolic. It is only through the supernatural power of God himself that animals could possibly cross that divide.

You agree "metaphorically"??? The Bible is not metaphorical about it at all. The Bible clearly teaches that God is revealed in all that he has created. That is a clear Bible teaching. You are simply wrong. I choose to believe the Bible.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

God has instilled even in His most base creatures a desire to protect life and even sadness when life is taken. It is not uncommon for animals to grieve the death of their owners or even a another pet with whom they were raised. Animals feel not only pain, but happiness, fear, remourse, and these emotions (albeit far more limited in their expression than in man) are as real for them as for us. Cruelty to animals is immoral and would be considered a sin.

Gotta diagree here. You are putting the unique God given qualities of human emotions into animals. Animals do not grieve death in the same way a human does...there is no evidence that they even have that remote capacity. An animals entire life is built around an instinct of survivability. Now do animals express their instinctual well-being or sickness, or unhappiness in unique ways? Of course, all animals do. But that in no way implies that they can react outside of those instincts based on a conscious decision of mind

I am not putting human emotions on animals. I have already stated that their expressions of emotions are far more limited than our own and have not equated them with us, but I have seen animals grieve and their grief can be every bit as real as our own. It is not purely instinct. To say that God has not given animals the ability feel pain and sadness would simply be wrong and contradicts observable behavior.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

Now, for those who say that cruelty to animals is not mentioned in the Bible as a sin: The Bible also does not say that dowsing myself with gasoline and setting myself on fire is a sin either. Does it have to? The Bible does not mention every sin that could possibly be committed. What it does is establish paradigms or frames of reference, which we can judge behavior that the Bible does not address. That means that while the Bible does not directly claim that torturing animals is sinful, there is enough information contained in the Bible that we can extrapolate from the Bible does say to determine what a biblical position is on that topic. We know enough about God that we can accurately determine His position on the matter.

Wouldn't this be why we have so many different religions. Its this type of thinking that requires so many different denominations in the Christian community. "Well, the bible doesn't say it...but we believe it so it must be true...therefore everyone who acts differently is obviously sinning." I won't pick on your example (even though most of us can probably think of multiple verses to cite why killing yourself is a sin) because I think I understand your point. We have all run into people that try to shove their particular brand of scripture 'rules' down everyone else's throat. Its just a bad way to go. If the bible doesn't say harming an animal is a sin...then you can't say it is.

No, this has nothing to do with why there are different religions nor does it pertain to "rules" and denominations. You are completely missing the point. The Bible does not mention every possible, conceivable scenario or sin in which a person might themselves in. There are issues and situations that arise that the Bible does not directly address. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 had to deal with that issue when it came to issue of Christians marrying non Christians.

One of the Ten commandments says you are not to make any graven images. Even though that commandment was not specifically prohibiting images made form metal or wood or on parchment, it was understood from the standpoint of a behavioral paradigm, that all images were prohibited regardless of the medium employed to create it.

The Bible establishes prinicples and paradigms through which we can examine actions the Bible does not address. It does not allow us to make our own rules, but rather it allows us to use the Bible as standard to measure ALL human behavior, which includes cruelty to animals.

As for my example, you are proving my point. You can find all kinds of Scriptures that show why setting one's self on fire is wrong. The point is you cannot find THAT particular action listed as a sin in the Bible. Therefore, you must use the existing information as the paradigm you are bringing to the action in order to address it.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

My grandfather used to raise cattle to be slaughtered. I remember watching the fear expressed by animals awaiting slaughter. They could smell death. They could hear anguish by the cattle getting smashed in the head with sledge hammers because not every cow was killed with the first blow. The number of blows it takes to kill a beef cow depends on the strength of the person wielding the hammner.

Seriously...even you can figure out the instincs of animals in this situation. There is no tangible fear of death as you and I understand it by cattle in a slaughterhouse.

Again, you can say what you want, but I have seen it for myself. You can try to come off with one your corny "know it all" explanations, but I know what I saw and what I experienced for years.

There is a survival instinct. Their instincts are telling them to get away from the area...not some thought process of a fear of death and the afterlife.

That is not what I said. I said they can smell death, and yes there is a survival instinct and we have it too. There is a natural advserse feeling to have one's life taken.

You would think that their adrenaline and fear would carry them for miles if released. But...if you have ever seen those animals released...they don't run for miles. They run back to the safety of their pen...usually to the water or food. They look around for a second...and go right back to being the dumb animal they were before. Animals have instincts. They sense dangers and threats and comforts.

Because that is all the only place they have to go. It's not like they have the option of escaping to the wide open spaces. Those places are built to keep animals from espaping.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 17 2009, 04:54 AM)

God gave man dominion over the earth and over the works of His hands. (Gen.1:28; Ps. 8:6) The Bible places a high premium on moderate, responsible behavior in all things, and cursory reading of the book of Proverbs will teach you that. With dominion over creation comes responsibility for how the dominion is carried out. A Godly person will not irresponsibly harm animals for sport or cause them unnecessary pain for any reason.

I mostly agree with your comments here with two small exceptions. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about a person's Godliness without adequate scriptural support that what they are doing is sinful.

But I have enough information about what a Godly person is like coupled with man's God given responsibilities as stewards of creation, that I can pretty much nail and have done so, whehter your "theology" makes rooom for it or not.

Cruelty to animals is unGodly and there is no biblical defense for it.

I also don't think that 'moderation' is the standard that God has...is it Godly...or not? (Moderation is a whole 'nother topic though...)

I did not say that moderation was the standard by which God measures Godliness. I said that we are to behave in moderate responsible manner. Taking sadistic pleasure in intentionally bringing harm to animals is not indicative of a Godly person and is certainly neither moderate or nor responsible. It is sick and perverted.

People who are cruel to animals tend to be jerks when dealing with other people. I have never met a person who was cruel to animals that was not an all around abusive person toward family members and coworkers.

[nebula]

Axxman - are you a dentist? (Reference: Little Shop of Horrors)

[nebula]

Actually, Axx, I hope when you get to Heaven the Lord put you under the tutelage of Francis of Assissi.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."

~Francis of Assissi~

[Openly Curious]

It is my opinion that cruelty to animals is a sin and there have been scripture given in this thread from the book of Proverbs that the righteous take care of their animals - but - even the unrighteous person in their compassion is cruel. For a righteous person does that which is right in the eyes of the Lord but an unrighteous person does that which is wrong in the eyes of the Lord.

I Know this is a little bit of a turn but I think it is true to the animals that is under our care as we can't be responsible for that which is not within our care. Our neighbors across the street does not take care of their dogs they keep them pinned up and they brake loose and they let them run all around the neighborhood. These two dogs watch us when we come home as we give them water which they devour then we feed them our left overs.

we also give them those doggie sticks. Since coming over our house I have trained one dog to sit and she will not even get up until she get's all her food. The other boy dog I also have trained him to sit and to shake hands and although these are not my dogs I still have compassion on them

Now I know these scripture is referring to the minister of the Lord getting paid for his labor. For the labourer is worthy of his hire. But they tell us something about animals.

1 corinthians 9:9--For it is written in the law of Moses. Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

This verse says not to muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Then a question is asked Doth God take care for oxen? My answer to that question is yes, God does take care for the oxen. He also cares for the sparrow and feeds them. But why does God not want the oxen to be muzzled? My opinion is because if the ox had a muzzle over his mouth then the ox would not be able to eat of the corn as he treadeth out the corn and the ox should get some benefit from the labour he was doing for his owner. And God did take care of the oxen and commanded the people not to put a muzzle on their ox but let him eat when they are treading out the corn as they should get this benefit for their hard labour.

1 timothy 5:18--For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, the labourer is worthy of his reward.

Deuteronomy 25:4--Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

oc

[Guest yod]

Psalm 84:3

Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young

[artsylady]

From Numbers 22

So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road. 24 Then the Angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side. 25 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she pushed herself against the wall and crushed Balaam

[tah]

Psalm 84:3

Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young

[Openly Curious]

Psalm 84:3

Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young

[Axxman]

Actually, Axx, I hope when you get to Heaven the Lord put you under the tutelage of Francis of Assissi.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."

~Francis of Assissi~

LOL...I am not a dentist..

Lets make something perfectly clear. I am NOT arguing for the abuse of animals...at all. I am merely pointing out the idea that somehow harming an animal is not a sin. The second someone claims it is a sin...then you have to start making exceptions to the 'new' rule. It is this same type of rule making that governs the pseudo-religious environmentalism that is everywhere today.