t.v. seduction, harry potter, etc....

[Guest man]

I've got a question:

Which movie(s) or TV show(s) do you believe God would endorse?

None.

Not even John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies? :th_praying:

Nope.

[Massorite]

Great observation Hawk and I agree fully. I did the research and found that "Father Christmas" was what was also considered to be the Norse god Odin who at one time demanded human sacrifice. In Narnia the gifts this Santa gave out had magical powers that came from the instrument gifts (inanimate objects that have no soul, no life, and no heart) including the power to bring one back from the dead. The reason that Santa didn't fly is because at the time of C.S. Lewis. Santa hadn't evolved to the big fat red robed Santa who magically flies around the world pulling endless gifts out of a bag.

C.S Lewis was not a great Christian but he was a great deceiver in that he was able to convince many that his fantastic story was based on the bible or Christianity. He was able to put witchcraft into what was supposed to be a Christian based book and cause people to look at it as if it was of godly but was not.

That my friends is what a great deceiver does.

How can the message of Narnia be a great message when it is mixed up with evil of witchcraft but was portrayed as witchcraft that came from God through "Father Christmas" who was supposed to be a good guy but was fashioned after a pagan god.

Hey brother, I think you may have missed the entire point of the Father Christmas character in the story. Clearly, the most controversial of ALL his characters, Father Christmas fits perfectly into the story (which is NOT an allegory) if you understand the reasons behind putting him there. It is important to remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are NOT an allegory. An allegory shares a direct one-to-one relationship with the thing signified. If Aslan were an allegory, he would possess all the divine attributes of Christ, which he does not, and his life would parallel that of Christ's in every detail, which it does not. It was not Lewis' intention to write an allegory. What Lewis wrote about were "supposal" figures. "Suppose" there was a world named Narnia... Quote from Lewis: "I said 'Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would have happened.'"

You can't compare Father Christmas to the Norse God unless that is the intended "supposed" character in the story. CS Lewis' intended target was the historical St. Nicholas, who was known to give gifts to children. But his point was magnified by the sheer rejection of the character amongst his peers. Fellow authors (JRR Tolkien included,) and friends, and even Roger Green who was a friend and proof-reader urged Lewis to remove the character from the book. None of them could understand such a jarring 'real-world' character invading Narnia. The more that people urged him to remove the character, the more Lewis believed that his point was served by leaving Father Christmas in the story.

By drawing attention to Father Christmas as a mythical figure, Lewis points to the spiritual reality Father Christmas has replaced. In removing Father Christmas from his iconic position in Western culture and locating him in a fantasy world, Lewis makes an important point about how far Christian societies have come in supplanting the meaning of Christmas with a myth: the real incongruity is not that Father Christmas is out of place in Narnia but that he is not more out of place in Christian societies. In other words...if you think Father Christmas is out of place in Narnia's Christmas tradition, how much more out of place is he in our Christian traditions?

Now, great literary debates have taken place since Lewis decided to make this point, so I doubt we'll make a dent in them here in our humble little forum. I just wanted to address what i perceived as a common misconception that CS Lewis was relying on a pagan symbol and witchcraft. Whether using Father Christmas damages the story of Narnia is debatable (JRRR Tolkein certainly hated the idea)...but we must at least understand the true reasons he took that gamble.

Your arguments are very compelling and I agree with most of them. I only used the "Father Christmas" as an example. I agree that Lewis didn't get his idea from a pagan god and I should have made myself more clear. My intention was to say that Lewis used that which had been transformed from a pagan god to a symbol of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Did Lewis know he was using that which had it's origins in paganism? I don,t know but it seems to me that from what you said he knew "Father Christmas" didn't belong in the celebrations of the birth of Christ.

I do compare "Father Christmas" to the Norse god because without the Norse god of Odin there wouldn't be any Father Christmas because the Norse god came first and and did almost exactly what Father did. Here is an expert from my book on Odin/Santa

It was St. Nicholas that the Roman church used to meld together with the pagan god Odin to create who we now know of today as Santa Claus.

In the 9th century he was honored as King Frost by the Saxons of England. King Frost would be represented by a man who would dress up with a fur hat or crown who would visit fire sides. The Saxons believed that by welcoming winter as a deity/god that winter would be less harsh on them.

As the Vikings came to England during the last part of the 9th century and the early part of the 10th century, they brought with them their chief god whose name was Odin. They believed that Odin had twelve characters and the one for December was known as Jultid which is where we get our word

[Axxman]

I've got a question:

Which movie(s) or TV show(s) do you believe God would endorse?

Survivor??

But seriously...lol...since when do I need a label that says "Approved by God" on everything so that people think we are spiritual enough? Is that label on golf games? Is it on the loop-de-loop at the fair? Is it on Strong's concordance? It is up to each individual to seek God's will in their lives. Whatever we do, we do unto God...not unto the opinions of other people.

There are plenty of ways that people entertain themselves that I don't choose for my family...that doesn't mean that I can judge myself as more spiritual than somebody else. Thats between them and God. On the flipside, there are plenty of things that I allow for my family that people somehow think they have the right to judge me for.

[Axxman]

Your arguments are very compelling and I agree with most of them. I only used the "Father Christmas" as an example. I agree that Lewis didn't get his idea from a pagan god and I should have made myself more clear. My intention was to say that Lewis used that which had been transformed from a pagan god to a symbol of the celebration of the birth of Christ. Did Lewis know he was using that which had it's origins in paganism? I don,t know but it seems to me that from what you said he knew "Father Christmas" didn't belong in the celebrations of the birth of Christ.

I do compare "Father Christmas" to the Norse god because without the Norse god of Odin there wouldn't be any Father Christmas because the Norse god came first and and did almost exactly what Father did.

The bottom line here is that the imaginations of men created this Norse god and he evolved into what we now call Santa Claus. According to the Webster's the word "suppose" means "to assume to be true", "to believe or think" or "to consider as a possibility". So when Lewis was telling somebody to "suppose there was a Narnia and to suppose that Christ wasn't a man but a lion" he was actually telling them to believe in that which is an assumption and not real. Which would make what he was supposing a fantasy that he was telling people to believe in.

I don't for a minute believe that anybody ever believed that there really was a Narnia but what I know is that most everybody who watched the Narnia movie believed that it was a replication of the story of Christ and therefore thought is was a "Good Christian Story". When in fact it actually was full of the imaginations of men starring an evil witch who could cast spells and make something out of nothing, an evil Norse god who gave out magical gifts who was called "Father" as in Father God which is strictly forbidden by God in Matthew 23:9. Unless the charector of father Christmas was supposed to be God and that makes it even worse because then he was calling that which was not God as if it was God.

We should always remember that the Universal church converted pagan holy days and celebrations into Christian holy days and celebrations but that didn't change the fact that they were pagan holy days and were not sanctioned by God.

Hey Brother...I think we've made our respective points and I can't disagree with alot of what you've said. I am going to keep this brief so we don't totally derail this thread...lol.

The only thing to add about the CS Lewis "Father Christmas" character is that it wasn't intended to be a 'supposed' character. Many people have speculated that it was a supposal of John the Baptist (a fore-runner of Aslan,) or the Holy Spirit (the giver of gifts,) or even God the Father (because of the Father title.) None of those are true. The reason that the Father Christmas was sooooo controversial to Lewis' peers was because it was actually supposed to be Father Christmas (i.e. St. Nicholas) in the fantasy land and many people believed that it ruined the whole point (and fantasy) of Narnia to use this real-world character to make his point.

Lastly, alot has been made throughout the years about whether or not CS Lewis' tales were appropriate or even Christian. I've read a couple of biographies, and enough of his writings to believe that CS Lewis was just trying to write stories that were "embedded with Christianity." I don't think that he ever perceived that his writings would be poured over in the way that they are looking for theological highlights (or lowlights.) Much of the lion, witch, wardrobe books are not only commentary on christian topics...but he also put plenty in those books on social and moral topics as well. Which is why, once again, when he had an opportunity to use a part of his story to make a commentary about how much worldly ritual was overshadowing the true meaning of Christmas...he took that opportunity.

Take care bro!

[nebula]

I've got a question:

Which movie(s) or TV show(s) do you believe God would endorse?

...since when do I need a label that says "Approved by God" on everything so that people think we are spiritual enough? ...

My point wasn't to condemn anyone.

My point was simply to provoke people to think. Especially for anyone who won't watch "certain" movies because "God wouldn't endorse it" . . . well, that's fine so long as such a one applies it to all they watch.

That's all.

[kross]

I've got a question:

Which movie(s) or TV show(s) do you believe God would endorse?

...since when do I need a label that says "Approved by God" on everything so that people think we are spiritual enough? ...

My point wasn't to condemn anyone.

My point was simply to provoke people to think. Especially for anyone who won't watch "certain" movies because "God wouldn't endorse it" . . . well, that's fine so long as such a one applies it to all they watch.

That's all.

I'll give you this;

Any time you are watching movies or TV you are not out trying to save souls. It is selfish "ME" time that is sin anyway. "To know to do good and to not do it is sin"

So, how many of you have thrown away good food while there are hungry people in the world? Sin

How many of you go to the movies or pay for cable while others are homeless? Sin

I could spend all my time pointing to other people's sins and deciding mine are not as bad, or I can except that I am not going to be righteous and perfect in this world, trust in the grace and salvation that was completed for me at calvary, and do the best I can in the life I have.

I refuse to beat myself up over every little thing that someone else might say or do based on what they might interpret what I am doing. I got enough excess sin in my life without being concerned about what other people think is sin.

While I believe in Holiness and Holy living, I am also a believer in reality and in the freedom of grace. What righteousness, I have I have been given from GOD, what sin I have HE has not removed from me. I doubt that I will ever be the perfectly selfless, homeless man JESUS was. But, I do what i can.

If there is any sin at all in the watching Harry Potter, it is in the self indulgeance of wasted time, not in the getting caught up in fantasy.

As my brother once told a voo doo woman who was going to put a curse on him, "you can't curse me, I am a blood bought child of GOD"

Now, the pursuit of righteous perfection is a good one, but until GOD HIMSELF convicts me something is sin and not just some person who wants to use a couple of scriptures to make a point, I will likely continue as I am, trusting in HIS grace and in HIS power to convict and to overcome sin in me and through me.

Whatever it is that you have misunderstood or are choosing to reword in what i have written, do not bother. While I will read what you post, I think I have said all that i am going to on Harry Potter. (except that I heard the new one is really good and I hate that I have to wait to see it)

[ColleenLovesMischief]

I've got a question:

Which movie(s) or TV show(s) do you believe God would endorse?

...since when do I need a label that says "Approved by God" on everything so that people think we are spiritual enough? ...

My point wasn't to condemn anyone.

My point was simply to provoke people to think. Especially for anyone who won't watch "certain" movies because "God wouldn't endorse it" . . . well, that's fine so long as such a one applies it to all they watch.

That's all.

I'll give you this;

Any time you are watching movies or TV you are not out trying to save souls. It is selfish "ME" time that is sin anyway. "To know to do good and to not do it is sin"

So, how many of you have thrown away good food while there are hungry people in the world? Sin

How many of you go to the movies or pay for cable while others are homeless? Sin

I could spend all my time pointing to other people's sins and deciding mine are not as bad, or I can except that I am not going to be righteous and perfect in this world, trust in the grace and salvation that was completed for me at calvary, and do the best I can in the life I have.

I refuse to beat myself up over every little thing that someone else might say or do based on what they might interpret what I am doing. I got enough excess sin in my life without being concerned about what other people think is sin.

While I believe in Holiness and Holy living, I am also a believer in reality and in the freedom of grace. What righteousness, I have I have been given from GOD, what sin I have HE has not removed from me. I doubt that I will ever be the perfectly selfless, homeless man JESUS was. But, I do what i can.

If there is any sin at all in the watching Harry Potter, it is in the self indulgeance of wasted time, not in the getting caught up in fantasy.

As my brother once told a voo doo woman who was going to put a curse on him, "you can't curse me, I am a blood bought child of GOD"

Now, the pursuit of righteous perfection is a good one, but until GOD HIMSELF convicts me something is sin and not just some person who wants to use a couple of scriptures to make a point, I will likely continue as I am, trusting in HIS grace and in HIS power to convict and to overcome sin in me and through me.

Whatever it is that you have misunderstood or are choosing to reword in what i have written, do not bother. While I will read what you post, I think I have said all that i am going to on Harry Potter. (except that I heard the new one is really good and I hate that I have to wait to see it)

Nice to know that appearance of evil means nothing to some people.

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[Axxman]

My point wasn't to condemn anyone.

My point was simply to provoke people to think. Especially for anyone who won't watch "certain" movies because "God wouldn't endorse it" . . . well, that's fine so long as such a one applies it to all they watch.

That's all.

Just to clarify...

I was just using your comments as a way to make a point. Your post just got me to thinking and I expanded on that thought. I didn't intend to make it sound like you were trying to cast a blanket condemnation on everyone...I know you wouldn't do that.

Sorry

[Axxman]

Nice to know that appearance of evil means nothing to some people.

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

You gotta know that the "appearance of evil" varies greatly from person to person. My dad thinks that going to Christian concerts is the "appearance of evil." Some people think that having a glass of wine during communion is the "appearance of evil." Some people think missing church one Sunday is the "appearance of evil."

While I may agree with you that Harry Potter is evil...it is up to each individual to make that determination in their walk with God.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Nice to know that appearance of evil means nothing to some people.

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

You gotta know that the "appearance of evil" varies greatly from person to person. My dad thinks that going to Christian concerts is the "appearance of evil." Some people think that having a glass of wine during communion is the "appearance of evil." Some people think missing church one Sunday is the "appearance of evil."

While I may agree with you that Harry Potter is evil...it is up to each individual to make that determination in their walk with God.

Considering God determined witchcraft/sorcery evil I don't see how people can get around that one. Wish I could do it.....no wait...I don't