Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[Guest shiloh357]

I partly agree with you. But our own efforts to meet the standard (through obedience to the Law) = self-righteousness, and our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. He will not touch it or come near it, and He will not allow us to bring it near Him, because it is stained with our sin.

We have to die to our self-effort: "through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God" (Gal.2: 19).

And the Law is nothing more or less than the expression of that standard you are talking about.

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

Grace does not enable us to meet the standard. Grace is the Spirit of Christ in us meeting the standard, by delivering us from the power of sin and sanctifying us, and producing the fruit of the Spirit in and through us which fulfills the Law.

Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms.

It has NOTHING to do with our works or with us meeting the standard - it is ALL God's work of redemption and of salvation and of sanctification. It is not God's work + our efforts at righteousness.

I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

[BlindSeeker]

I partly agree with you. But our own efforts to meet the standard (through obedience to the Law) = self-righteousness, and our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. He will not touch it or come near it, and He will not allow us to bring it near Him, because it is stained with our sin.

We have to die to our self-effort: "through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God" (Gal.2: 19).

And the Law is nothing more or less than the expression of that standard you are talking about.

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

Grace does not enable us to meet the standard. Grace is the Spirit of Christ in us meeting the standard, by delivering us from the power of sin and sanctifying us, and producing the fruit of the Spirit in and through us which fulfills the Law.

Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms.

It has NOTHING to do with our works or with us meeting the standard - it is ALL God's work of redemption and of salvation and of sanctification. It is not God's work + our efforts at righteousness.

I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

Amen, well said Shiloh.

[precepts]

lekh's

The biggest misunderstanding of the law vs grace issue is that the Law is only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Jesus does not need to refer those He indwells (and in whom He writes His Law) to the written Law found in a book called the Old Testament. He convicts the heart of His disciple - because that's where His Law is written - not in a book called the Old Testament:

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (Joh.14: 20)

"I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (John 15: 5)

It's not the branch bearing fruit and living up to the standard of the Law - it's the Vine bearing fruit through the branch and fulfilling the Law.

Once the written Law has served its purpose and brought a person to Christ, it can be dispensed with, since it now becomes written in the heart by the Living Law-giver - and that is exactly why we are told:

"In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away." (Heb 8:13)

There are now only three covenants that remain: The eternal covenants of grace which are based solely on the faithfulness of God to His Word: The Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant.

Do you speak in tongues?

canuck's

QUOTE (precepts @ Jul 28 2009, 09:50 PM)

Do you know that fencing in all of your property is a sin? Do you know that the earth is polluted by sin that causes famine, droughts, etc.? Action speaks louder than words. we are wheat planted amidst a cursed earth, a nation within a cursed nation that pollutes the earth because they don't know how to walk in God's statues. It's only by our fruits will we be known in the harvest.

Really, and how many of those wheat sprouts do you know are following the letter of the law without error? Are you one of them?

Can you honestly say that the law has never been wholly kept by no one since Moses?

Precept:

QUOTE

The biggest misunderstanding of the law vs grace issue is that it was the whole law (involving sacrifice, circumcision, etc.) vs the new covenant that they were referring to. When paul spoke of not keeping the law he was referring to the whole law. That's why when he went to Jerusalem he had to santicfy himself in the temple.

Paul had to be purified to enter the temple or he would have been killed. In fact it didn't work, and they wanted to kill him anyways for teaching gentiles not to follow the whole law, and he was arrested.

The question wasn't about doing away with the whole law, the question was do they keep the whole law.

[precepts]

canuck's

QUOTE

However we determine our behavior by seeking the Holy Spirit, by keeping step with the Holy Spirit. I have said way back in this thread that the law is perfect, it is man that is flawed. That is why we fail by the letter of the law.

Precept

QUOTE

We failed by the law because of the sacrifices that had to be made constantly but now we have a better everlasting covenant and sacrifice.

You think men failed the law because they couldn't keep up with the sacrifices. Please get me some scripture that indicates that.

Not that they couldn't keep it up but that Christ's sacrifice was once and for all.

canuck's

QUOTE

Jesus is demonstrating that man's interpretation of the law can be flawed, even by the experts. He even shows them how they themselves would break their interpretation of the law in various situations. The point being that the book of the law until that point had been applied by men who are prone to error. By their error they created religious traditions that were self serving and against God's plan for righteous interpersonal relationships. As can be seen in His disapproval of the Pharisees handling of the law

Precept:

QUOTE

If the Pharisees were experts in the law they wouldn't be in error. The reason Christ ask if there was any good in Israel when he met Nataniel was the history of Israel after the 2nd temple era.

If the pharisees were not the experts in the law, tell me please who was?

According to history, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were hellenistic, Dan 11:21-24.

QUOTE

The letter of the law leads to man's indulgence because it is processed through the filter of the flesh. But when the law is processed through the filter of the Spirit. It results in righteous activity. Avoid the letter of the law, rely on God's Holy Spirit which He has given you for this purpose.

Precept:

QUOTE

canuck 2:4. The letter of the law was good enough for them in the old testament or else it wouldn't of been instituted.

The letter of the law failed, hence the sacrifice of Christ. The law was instituted so man could see the need for a savior, as well as demonstrating righteous interaction.

If the law was good enough then, why did Jesus pay a visit?

Christ was promised thru out the old testament, it was all God's plan. Gen 3:14-15, the seed of the woman would bruise the serpents head.

[kross]

Are you an aussie my friend? lol its 11:30 pm here in kentucky usa

I am a true canuck, but I live in Thailand currently. I live beside an Aussie though. They talk funny.

Theres no doubt they were abusing the law but they have no effect on the law standing or falling, or whether ite relevant or not

I must disagree; abuse and misinterpretation of the law is inherent because of man's sin nature. This has an incredible effect on the law, because its application results in unrighteous behavior. The words of the law were unchanged by the pharisees, but the application was in the wrong spirit. This is why the letter is death to man, but the Spirit is life. We need the Holy Spirit or God must destroy us.

Ive been through ontario... loved it, most especially the smaller towns, the coffee shops and little delis, pubs...

Canuck, the only problem i see here is that i dont see any law regarding healing on the sabbath that could have been misinterpreted

Healing on the Sabbath was a work. Work was not to be done on the Sabbath. I am surprised the Sanhedan didn't use this to show JESUS healed by Satan, after all, would GOD work on the Sabbath?

[canuckamuck]

Can you honestly say that the law has never been wholly kept by no one since Moses?

Yes, and Moses too.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Precept:

The question wasn't about doing away with the whole law, the question was do they keep the whole law.

I can't recall if it says Paul kept the whole law after he had his revelations. He does call himself the chief of sinners though. And he definitely taught that Gentiles need not follow the letter of the law.

[canuckamuck]

We failed by the law because of the sacrifices that had to be made constantly but now we have a better everlasting covenant and sacrifice.

Canuck:

You think men failed the law because they couldn't keep up with the sacrifices. Please get me some scripture that indicates that.

Precept

Not that they couldn't keep it up but that Christ's sacrifice was once and for all.

So you think Christ wasn't necessary, just convenient.

Precept:

According to history, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were hellenistic, Dan 11:21-24.

Who in your opinion represented religious authoritiy in Jesus day?

Canuck:

The letter of the law leads to man's indulgence because it is processed through the filter of the flesh. But when the law is processed through the filter of the Spirit. It results in righteous activity. Avoid the letter of the law, rely on God's Holy Spirit which He has given you for this purpose.

Precept:

canuck 2:4. The letter of the law was good enough for them in the old testament or else it wouldn't of been instituted.

Canuck:

The letter of the law failed, hence the sacrifice of Christ. The law was instituted so man could see the need for a savior, as well as demonstrating righteous interaction.

If the law was good enough then, why did Jesus pay a visit?

Precept:

Christ was promised thru out the old testament, it was all God's plan. Gen 3:14-15, the seed of the woman would bruise the serpents head.

Yes, but that doesn't take away from my statement. The law is described as a schoolteacher.

[precepts]

Spiritual shaking the dust off of my feet. Who have eyes to see will see, etc..

[WolfBitn]

I think the problem we often confuse with the law is 2 fold

First of all when the Hebrews were given the law, with all its blessings and cursings, they actually agreed to KEEP the law and suffer consequences and reward. In other words they thought they could, and many lost sight of the fact we simply cant... we fail.

Some felt they could earn their way to righteousness when the law was only intended to school us to the reality that we are desperately wicked.

In the same way, in the nt some people believe Paul condemns the law all together and that Christ has made it void... both are untrue. Paul ONLY points out that those who try to JUSTIFY themselves by the law are condemned... not at all hinting that the law doesnt condemn us all even today... ONLY that the law cant save us

So in my estimation, the law is good, as Paul says... not one jot of it has passed because not all is fulfilled... it condemns us and doesnt justify us, and this opens thhe door to understanding righteousness and justification because of GRace and Gods sacrifice

[lekh l'kha]

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

No I'm not. The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

I will agree to disagree with you. Self-righteousness is not only what you say above (although it is also what you say above). Self-righteousness is also what I described above - that is, ANY righteousness which is not the righteousness of Christ.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

That makes you a Christian - someone who belongs to Christ.

Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

No. I'm disagreeing with certain things you say (as I've showed above, once again).