can salvation be lost?

[Guest shiloh357]

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone either giving up their salvation or God revoking anyone's salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized, he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

That is not an example of what a person who gave up their faith. It is an example of a very deceived and misguided individual.

An individual who imediately asked for forgiveness. Hardly one who lost their salvation.

And, since he didn't know how the HOLY SPIRIT was passed, obviously was not one that was indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT.

You should study the Early Church Fathers.

Simon Magus is the father of all heresies.

Irrelevant. The fact remains that you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

[leoxiii]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

[other one]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

That my friend, is just as much your fault (if not more so), as it is your youth pastor. You failed to read and understand your Bible. Your pastor failed to impress upon you (or you failed to hear) what salvation really means, and what is required of you in order to know for sure that you are saved.

Your absolutely right it was just as much my fault as it was the church that taught it.. Its my fault for not seeking out the truth and believing whatever my church/Pastor feed me rather then finding out what the bible says...but what do you expect from a young teenager and an unbeliever at the time. Later on in life I realized that I was being lied to and I left and sought out church's and believers who didn't fall for such OSAS lies. The whole time that I was going to these OSAS church, I knew down in my heart that there was something wrong with this doctrine and I knew that it didn't jive with what Jesus taught.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Calvinism doesn't believe a Christian can fall away, no matter how ungodly they act, unless it evolves murder, child molestation or some other hideous sin and then they will claim, "oh, they were never saved in the first place".

I agree OSAS doctrine is the strongest and best lie that Satan has ever conceived. It will take much more then debating to convince those who are under its power to see the truth.

[kross]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Calvinism doesn't believe a Christian can fall away, no matter how ungodly they act, unless it evolves murder, child molestation or some other hideous sin and then they will claim, "oh, they were never saved in the first place".

I agree OSAS doctrine is the strongest and best lie that Satan has ever conceived. It will take much more then debating to convince those who are under its power to see the truth.

That's funny. I believe that the teaching that you cannot trust your life to JESUS enough to keep you saved is the biggest lie from Satan.

I asked a simple question before.

Since the Bible is very clear that JESUS is able to keep you from falling and present you blameless before the throne of grace, is HE willing to keep you from falling ( keep you from turning away) and prevent you blameless before the throne?

I believe HE is willing to keep me from falling and to present me blameless before the throne.

[OneLight]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Calvinism doesn't believe a Christian can fall away, no matter how ungodly they act, unless it evolves murder, child molestation or some other hideous sin and then they will claim, "oh, they were never saved in the first place".

I agree OSAS doctrine is the strongest and best lie that Satan has ever conceived. It will take much more then debating to convince those who are under its power to see the truth.

That's funny. I believe that the teaching that you cannot trust your life to JESUS enough to keep you saved is the biggest lie from Satan.

I asked a simple question before.

Since the Bible is very clear that JESUS is able to keep you from falling and present you blameless before the throne of grace, is HE willing to keep you from falling ( keep you from turning away) and prevent you blameless before the throne?

I believe HE is willing to keep me from falling and to present me blameless before the throne.

Lets look at the semantics here. To fall incurs an accident, as I fell off the ladder. So, in that, I agree. But, if I jumped, it is intentional. Again, I agree that if one believes in their heart that Jesus is the Christ, then they have eternal security through Him. Yet, if one says in their heart that there is no God after once believing, then they do not. We are always responsible for our decisions if we do not repent.

I won't continue to repeat the same scripture over and over again, since you do not believe that anyone can turn away on their own.

[other one]

If you are not a Calvinist and believe in free will, I don't see anywhere that God removes that free will when you are saved. That is the reason I said that "In Theory" one still has free will to take it back...... Like I said, I can't imagine how or why anyone would do that.

As for falling or stumbling and loosing your salvation........ nah, that simply can not happen.

Now if you are a Calvinist, this whole discussion is moot for none of it has anything to do with any of salvation whatsoever. but that's another 75 page thread that goes nowhere too.

[kross]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

leoxii, you might as well just give up on this subject because those who do not believe that you can loose your salvation can not fathom anyone falling away, and they will be completely convinced that the person was never saved in the first place. I've seen these theads reach 50 to 60 pages and it almost always ends up in anger and/or frustration and comes to that very conclusion that any peson that you would say that lost their salvation was not saved in the first place.

Calvinism doesn't believe a Christian can fall away, no matter how ungodly they act, unless it evolves murder, child molestation or some other hideous sin and then they will claim, "oh, they were never saved in the first place".

I agree OSAS doctrine is the strongest and best lie that Satan has ever conceived. It will take much more then debating to convince those who are under its power to see the truth.

That's funny. I believe that the teaching that you cannot trust your life to JESUS enough to keep you saved is the biggest lie from Satan.

I asked a simple question before.

Since the Bible is very clear that JESUS is able to keep you from falling and present you blameless before the throne of grace, is HE willing to keep you from falling ( keep you from turning away) and prevent you blameless before the throne?

I believe HE is willing to keep me from falling and to present me blameless before the throne.

Lets look at the semantics here. To fall incurs an accident, as I fell off the ladder. So, in that, I agree. But, if I jumped, it is intentional. Again, I agree that if one believes in their heart that Jesus is the Christ, then they have eternal security through Him. Yet, if one says in their heart that there is no God after once believing, then they do not. We are always responsible for our decisions if we do not repent.

I won't continue to repeat the same scripture over and over again, since you do not believe that anyone can turn away on their own.

MOre accurately, I do not believe anyone who has been given the new heart, who is indwelt by the HOLY SPIRT, whos nature has been changed from one at emnity with GOD to being one drawn to HIM and being kept by HIS love, would ever have it in their heart to turn away.

To say cannot implies that there would be a desire to turn away. If you feel that "Fall" in this usage is something accidental, and JESUS would keep that from happening, then it is pretty much impossible for me to believe a person "can" turn away since a person would not want to and JESUS would not let them do it by accident.

[Guest shiloh357]

you did not provide an example of a person who was saved but chose to give up salvation.

I didn't. The Scriptures did. Simon Magus was saved and lost his salvation. The Scripture could not be more clear.

Again, I did not ask for that. I asked for one example of a person who was truly saved and voluntarily gave up his salvation. You didn't provide it.