music? a sin?

[nebula]

Like in real wartime not everyone is a soilder, but everyone is expected to support the war effort with whatever it takes to win, and those who dont are considered traitors or cowards.

The root of all sin is selfishness and anything that is not for the salvation of souls (excepting worship of God) is selfishness. But I have already explained that many things in life make us better suited to winning souls, such as education, marriage, raising godly children, earning money to pay our own way and to have some to give towards the war effort, rest and relaxation when needed etc. But the ultimate aim of all that we do is to glorify God and win souls.

Botz, I am not Calvinist in the least and am Armeinian if anything. I am not debating so much secular vs christian as I personally listen to neither and only enjoy actual live worship of God. I am not saying it is wrong to worship while listening to music. What I am saying is that selfish indulgence while souls are perishing is sin and that secular music not used for worship is selfish indulgence and a work of the flesh.

Actually, our first goal is to cultivate our one-on-one relationship with the Lord.

And the Bible doesn't say "anything that is not for the salvation of souls (escepting worship of God") is a sin. The Bible rather states that "whatever is not of faith is sin."

And yes, there is a difference.

But you said something interesting up there - you included "rest and relaxation when needed" in your list of acceptable things. What is listening to Ricky Scaggs' non-religious song help a person to relax?

[Guest yod]

Yod are you then saying you are an immoral person? The gospel is not licence to sin (do what is morral wrong) and anyone who remains in rebellion to God is antinomian and not saved.

If I were to be judged by "morality", then it would depend on which piece of the Earth I'm standing on...so the answer is "yes!" in most places.

And I THANK GOD I am an immoral person by those human standards. "Our" righteousness is as mentrual rags. Righteousness in the Holy Spirit is all we should be concerned about. Do you not understand the difference?

And I always have to chuckle when someone who doesn't understand or observe the Torah starts throwing around the antinomian accusation. There are more places that you are "breaking the Law" than something so legalistic and trivial as what style of rhythm/melody you might enjoy.

Legalism is the exaltation of self over others through the usage of rules. This discussion 'tis the definition of that. While you and I would probably agree on the fact that secular music can be ungodly, it is legalism to require someone to stop eating ham though the Law clearly states this is against the will of God.

And by the way, having just returned from Ozzyland, I am curious....do you also eat kangaroo?

[artsylady]

ArtsyLady, I think you misunderstand what I am saying? but even if you did I still dont expect you or others here will agree as the false gospel being preached today has meant that most do not understand what or why somethin is sin.

I asked you quite a few questions in my post and wouldn't mind if you would answer them. It would give me a better understanding of what you are saying.

What did Jesus do ? There has always been entertainments in the world but we do not see a hint of Jesus enjoying these even in His youth.

So you assumed he did not enjoy entertainment?

Yes He did go to a wedding and performed a miracle to point them to God and begin His ministry. Everything Jesus did was ultimatley to win souls .

I understand that we are to spend time with our family, but does that mean we have to spend every waking moment either working, soul winning, or spending time with family?

If none were gonig to hell then entertainment would not be sinful, but because they are, our time our money and our talents must be used directly or indirectly for the salvation of souls.

Are you saying it is a sin to go fishing with a friend? Take an art class ? Spend a few hours at a park with your dog? Enjoy a latte at a coffee shop by yourself?

There are many indirect ways of acheiving this, but it must be our aim in all we do. i.e We eat to keep up our stamina and health to save souls, and some of the ways this can be done are, Worship of God to show unbelievers His worth and importance, loving and caring for our families to show unbelievers God loves families, preaching, healing and praying etc.

Now tell me what have shown unbelievers when we indulge in entertainment to satisfy curiousity or a vain itch? have we not shown them that hell is not real and God is not fervently wanting to save them?

Maybe it doesn't show them we have a 'vain itch" - rather it shows we have a healthy balance.

I really dont think the world is going to be won by watching Christians attending church all of the time, and having a list of 'don'ts' that aren't allowed.

We aren't a 'peculiar people' because we abstain from so many things. MOST religions do this!! We are peculiar because we love the unloveable, have peace in turmoil and we have inner strength and quiet confidence, self control, etc, etc. etc. It's our personal attributes, not where we go that they will find attractive as as a quality.

We are to "go forth and multiply" "having dominion over all things", therefore we are to do our best and be our best. This requires good health, strong faith and the best use of our faculties, it may require becoming educated to our best and raising families to their best, but it cannot mean we disuse these for selfish ends.

If im wrong about this, i simply dont know where and hope you will both forgive me and ignore me. I really do respect your right to object to what i say and i have no ill feeling toward anyone who does

.

I fully agree that souls need to be won, but I think it's easier to relate to people when you share a few commonalities. What do you do when you walk into your neighbor's garage and he is playing secular music? Do you leave because you feel spiritually tainted?

I believe there is some evil secular music out there and it would be very unwise as a Christian to reflect upon or actively listen to.

But what about the Star Spangled banner? This is secular. Is it a sin? When listening to the song, is it a sin for positive emotions to be conjured up ?

Is it a sin to listen to a love song where emotions for our spouse are conjured up? Is it wrong to laugh with your child and do actions to the Incy Wincy Spider song?

I just don't think this is a black and white issue.

[JCISGD]

Ok theres just too much to reply to here, so i will just make a summary of some points and leave it at that, unless anyone wants to slog it out one question at a time. The problem with firing off multiple shots is that it all just gets lost in the noise and ecitement.

1.) I am not setting any bar or standard, I am only saying what I believe is the mind of God and IF I am correct about it then it is God who has set it not me.

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

3.) I am not saying that anything other than soul winning is sin, I am saying that everything we do must have this as our end goal. When we eat,sleep,rest or worship the Father, it is to be refreshed so that we can again turn our energies towards saving souls or carrying out other necessities towards that goal. We can morally do all things that enable this, but we cannot morally indulge in anything idle or useless while souls are perishing.

i.e We can morally go fishing with a friend as friends are important and necessary in life, but we should also have one eye/ear open for opportunity or advancement later of our ultimate goal of winning souls.

4.) Nebula, you are correct in saying whatever is not faith is sin, but the root of all sin is selfishness. The root of any lack of faith is a selfish desire over Gods desire that we have faith in all things. It is also true that not aiming to save souls is a lack of faith and rooted in selfishness. That is why God says "these people worship me with their lips but their heart is far away from me". Gods heart is for the lost and He does not need our worship, nor does he want us saying "Lord Lord" but not doing what He has asked us to do, which is to reap the harvest that Jesus has planted.

5.) Artsy, you have asked for answers which is fair but for the reasons below please post your objections or questions one at a time, please help me here, and have my assurance I have not been deliberatly evaisive only negilgent if anything. I also feel my questions are not being answered apples for apples, but i guess thats the nature of things sometimes. Q. If we do not show urgency and focus of saving souls from eternal torment according to the scale of our object then doesnt it show there we dont think it urgent or even perhaps real?

If anyone wants to discuss one point at a time I will do my best to answer it. Or choose any one point made earlier. Please understand its not possible for me to answer 4-5 posters on multiple points, some implying things I never meant or said. I am approachable and willing to defend calmly and rationally anything I have said and have always acknowledged when I feel I have been proven wrong.

[artsylady]

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

So you are saying the Holy Spirit is bringing truth through YOU and we are convicted because of it? I could easily turn it around and say the truth is being brought through those who are in disagreement with you and you are being convicted because of it.

The truth is in the Word. You really don't think the Holy Spirit convicts believers? I know I have been convicted many a time and changed my behaviour because of it.

5.) Artsy, you have asked for answers which is fair but for the reasons below please post your objections or questions one at a time, please help me here, and have my assurance I have not been deliberatly evaisive only negilgent if anything. I also feel my questions are not being answered apples for apples, but i guess thats the nature of things sometimes

I am trying to offer specific examples to see exactly what you believe.

How about just one? Or one at a time? Would it be wrong or a sin for a parent to sing and laugh and even find joy while singing and doing actions to Eensy Weensy Spider?

Q. If we do not show urgency and focus of saving souls from eternal torment according to the scale of our object then doesnt it show there we dont think it urgent or even perhaps real?

I agree with you and have a great urgency to see souls saved. But they are not seeing us as being a whole lot different from many religions if a bunch of rules seem to be our focus.

I think you and I would disagree on being in the world but not of the world. I think you'd see this as just being physically here, needing sun, oxygen, food, water etc, and in every other way you are different or separate. I view this as being in the midst of evil but not succumbing to temptation. Being in the midst of hate, yet loving. Being in the midst of tragedy, yet having a sound mind and a hopeful spirit. Being surrounded by confusion yet having a solid assurance. The world and it's influences are all around us. Do we shut it all out or do we find a way to joyfully overcome in spite of? Yes, some songs are evil but is anyone one of us going to be tempted to do evil by a song like "Barbara Ann"? Okay, maybe the married guy who once had a girlfriend way back when who he still has feelings for. lol. See what I mean? Why do some Christians see pure evil lurking when it is just not there? Are we really free when we give satan soooo much credit for what he probably didn't even have a hand in creating? Doesn't this border on paranoia?

I know I asked a lot of questions here but we can consider most rhetorical. Please just answer the bolded one.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

What do you make of this scripture?

[JCISGD]

(Would it be wrong or a sin for a parent to sing and laugh and even find joy while singing and doing actions to Eensy Weensy Spider?) Quote from Artsy

The real question is does it glorify God and work towards the childs best interest. Remember our children are to be saved asap in life and can be lost if we dont show them the love of God.

I can not say what spirit another might do this, but if the end result is not to win your child to Christ then i would say it is sin. But it is not sin to sing Eensy Wensy Spider to a child for the right reason.

Q. Is it ok to do less than our best at all times to win souls for Jesus?

[JCISGD]

QUOTE

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

So you are saying the Holy Spirit is bringing truth through YOU and we are convicted because of it? I could easily turn it around and say the truth is being brought through those who are in disagreement with you and you are being convicted because of it.

The truth is in the Word. You really don't think the Holy Spirit convicts believers? I know I have been convicted many a time and changed my behaviour because of it.

Artsy, Im not saying the Holy Spirit only uses me, He uses any truth uttered by another and presses it home to its hearer. I try to listen for the Holy Spirit speaking to me through YOU, and anyone i come into contact with.

Yes the H/S brings conviction of truth to believers or sin when committed. "He will teach you all things". Although the H/S speaks to us directly He also uses the words spoken by others. When David did not want to hear the H/S, God sent Nathan the prophet to speak the truth, but without the H/S Nathans words would have been empty of power to convict

The preacher in the pulpit or on the street, opens his mouth and utters words and the H/S can take any truth spoken and apply it to the conscience of its hearers.

Why do we have preachers, prophets and evangelists if this is not so?

[OneLight]

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

You are wrong by saying it is nonsense.

John 16:7-11 (New King James Version)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

[JCISGD]

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

You are wrong by saying it is nonsense.

John 16:7-11 (New King James Version)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Hi OL I wasnt saying the H/s wasnt involved, quite the opposite. If anyone is convicted of sin or truth it is by the H/S, but it is nonsense to say people dont need to say anything and it runs against the whole tenor of scripture.

I have only said that the H/S also uses truth spoken by men and presses it home to the conscience of its hearers. Scripture is clear if we do not speak up then that blood is on us.

[OneLight]

2.) The idea that conviction is left to the Holy Spirit is nonsense. The Holy Spirit uses truth to bring conviction, and He does this through the bible or through the words spoken by men and women. If I am saying anything that is convicting anyone it is the Holy Spirit taking the truth in my words and pressing them upon that persons conscience.

You are wrong by saying it is nonsense.

John 16:7-11 (New King James Version)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Hi OL I wasnt saying the H/s wasnt involved, quite the opposite. If anyone is convicted of sin or truth it is by the H/S, but it is nonsense to say people dont need to say anything and it runs against the whole tenor of scripture.

I have only said that the H/S also uses truth spoken by men and presses it home to the conscience of its hearers. Scripture is clear if we do not speak up then that blood is on us.

That is not always the case, my friend. Many times when I have done wrong, nobody has said a word to me, yet I have been deeply convicted for my mistakes, or sins, by He that is in me.

IF this happens when we are talking about scripture, I agree. Yet, as I stated, many convictions come when you are alone with God, and through the working of His Spirit, He brings back both the sin and His word.