Sabbath or Sunday ?

[BlindSeeker]

It seems like the early church used the 1st day (Sunday) of the week as the time of gathering and worship, which was also considered the Lords Day because he rose on the 1st Day of the Week (Sunday)

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them (ready to depart on the morrow) and continued his speech until midnight.

It also seems that the early church fathers (1st century) used the first day (Sunday) as the time of gathering and worship (see link)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/early.htm

"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." (Acts 20:7)

This verse has been used many times as a justification for the "Christian Sunday" day of worship. But if we look at the text from a Jewish perspective, we find it is actually contrary to the Christian "Sunday." The time mentioned in this verse is the Jewish first day of the week, at even (ie. evening), or suppertime.

To us, midnight on the first day is the day change between Saturday and Sunday. However, to the Jews, midnight on the first day would have been the conclusion of the first watch, since the first day of the week began at the setting of the sun on Saturday even and would continue till the next setting of the sun on Sunday even. (Gen.1:5 "...And the evening and the morning were the first day.")

If Paul had remained true to his pattern, he would have been in the synagogue on the Sabbath preaching to the Jews, or at least, reasoning with the Gentiles (See Acts 18:4). When the Sabbath concluded, Paul and the disciples returned to their place for supper, or what the Jews referred to as "breaking bread." At midnight, Eutychus fell out of the window because it was very late and he dozed off.. "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embraced him saying, "Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him." When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

Daybreak, (on our Sunday morning), was the latter part of the Jewish first day. Therefore, Paul's departure was actually on Sunday morning. Had this morning truly been the time of Christian fellowship and worship Paul would never have departed at that time.

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:1-2)

Paul knowing that his letter would be read to all the believers during their time of corporate fellowship and worship addressed them concerning their charity toward the saints in Jerusalem. He was not asking them to pass a collection plate, but rather he instructed them "let every one of you lay by him in store." Meaning don't put off charity. Make it a priority that after the Sabbath, on the first day of the week, to gather up the things you have at home to give and get them ready (in storage) for when Paul comes, for "there be no gatherings when I come."

If Paul were to do as he did at Troas, he would have stayed for the Sabbath fellowship, and then upon the "break of day" of the first day of week made the rounds to gathered up all the goods laid up in storage at everyone's house and then returned to Jerusalem.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Paul knowing that his letter would be read to all the believers during their time of corporate fellowship and worship addressed them concerning their charity toward the saints in Jerusalem. He was not asking them to pass a collection plate, but rather he instructed them "let every one of you lay by him in store." Meaning don't put off charity. Make it a priority that after the Sabbath, on the first day of the week, to gather up the things you have at home to give and get them ready (in storage) for when Paul comes, for "there be no gatherings when I come."

You made some valid points.

Question: Why would Paul tell them to gather their offering on the first day and not the second, third and so forth. It seems that the first day was when they assembled as a whole and brought their offerings (charity). This seems to be inline with their gathering together on the 1st day for fellowship and worship.

I understand this section 'that there be no gathering when I come', to mean gathering of offerings not assembly. Basicly what he means was, set aside your offerings on the 1st day of each week, so that when he comes they dont have to worry about collecting chairty and rasing money at that time because it will be already in storage waiting, so that Paul could focus on other issues such as the preaching of the word and fellowship. In my logic. it seems that the best time to take up offering would be when everyone was assembled (1st day of each week).

[ParanoidAndroid]

I don't know if I have addressed this question before or not (I haven't been around the boards for a while now), but I'll share my thoughts on the topic.

The Sabbath is and always will be Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Anyone who tries to equate Sunday with the Sabbath is making a biblical error. When Christians hold services on Sunday, we should do it simply because that is the day we have chosen to meet up as God's church (body of believers). There should be no Sabbath rituals of not working on Sunday, that only applies to the Sabbath. The question of course then turns to how we Christians should approach the Sabbath. To this, there have been two main trains of thought, both with some biblical support.

1 - Some suggest that the Sabbath still applies directly to us and that we should therefore honour Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. These people hold their own "day of rest" on this day to commemorate God and reflect on His will. Biblical support is simply found in the fact that the early Christians and apostles were all Sabbath keepers right to their dying day.

2 - The other view revolves around an interpretation of Hebrews 4. In this chapter, the author makes reference to us all having a "Sabbath Rest" in heaven (Greek, sabbatismos). The preceding section of scripture speaks of the promise of entering God's Eternal Rest (heaven) and how Jesus' resurrection is a kind of spiritual deposit that guarantees us a place. So therefore we are all living every day in a kind of Sabbath Rest.

Christians who take this second view believe that the 4th Commandment has been "fulfilled" to express a further spiritual truth. No longer do we observe just one day set aside as sacred, but because of Christ's death we all have a permanent partaking in God's eternal Sabbath Rest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I subscribe to the second view. Others may take the first. And yet others do not simply know enough of the Bible to make an informed choice. Whatever the case, some of us will be wrong. But our God is merciful and does not expect 100%. If I am wrong (I am the first to admit that i don't know everything - no one does, and I think it arrogant for anyone to make that claim), when I see God, and he asks me why I did not keep Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as his day of Rest, I would reply with my sincerest apologies that I had misunderstood his Word. And God, being forgiving, will look into my heart and see whether this is truly so. Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection will do the rest for me (it's Jesus I trust to get to heaven, not my interpretation of scripture).

~ Paranoid Android

[JCISGD]

Hi ive only read the first and last page so i dont know what others inbetween have said. I want share what i learnt from the teachings of that mighty revivalist and solid theologian Charles G Finney.

1) The sabbath does not and cannot mean the day known as saturday. Simply because of the different time zones which mean it cannot be strictly adhered.

2) The sabbath means a seventh part and this is proved from scripture elsewhere. ( sorry forgotten them but im sure if you seeek you will find.) Therefore anyone keeping a seventh part of the week is keeping the sabbath.

3) The sabbath was a day of rest and instruction, instituted to commemorate the work of creation ( By Jesus Himself John 1:1-3 )

4) The disciples met on the first day of the week for rest and instruction to commemorate the infinatley greater work of salvation,that Jesus again had acheived.

5) The Lord of the sabbath clearly states that "let no man tell you what days to keep".

It is my observation then that the two important things, are that humans get sufficient rest and that a day be set aside in every society for the teaching of the way, the worship of God above all else, and the opportunity for unbelievers to see that God is to be worshipped and adored above the interests of commerce. In theory it seems ok for each person to determine their own rest day, and i am not to judge but i think we lose alot when we cannot agree as a whole for a particular day.

[ParanoidAndroid]

It is my observation then that the two important things, are that humans get sufficient rest and that a day be set aside in every society for the teaching of the way, the worship of God above all else, and the opportunity for unbelievers to see that God is to be worshipped and adored above the interests of commerce. In theory it seems ok for each person to determine their own rest day, and i am not to judge but i think we lose alot when we cannot agree as a whole for a particular day.

Putting aside the view that I believe Saturday is the Sabbath, regardless of time-zones, I would just like to point out that for many people, Sunday is far from restful. While my Sundays are at the moment a lot quieter, there was a time when I was involved in several ministries that made Sundays my busiest day of the week. Two or three years ago, my schedule would have been packed full of meetings, discipleship groups, music ministry training and practice, and that would often go from 9am right through to the end of evening service at 6:30pm. Today, my schedule is significantly lighter and I can use the time to simply catch up with my brothers and sisters in Christ, but others have taken on the jobs that I had previously done and are just as active in ministry.

Just because we meet together at church doesn't make Sunday a "Day of Rest". However, it is definitely a good idea to set aside at least one day in the week to recuperate. That's just good time management to relax.

ALl the best, JC

~ PA

[BlindSeeker]

Paul knowing that his letter would be read to all the believers during their time of corporate fellowship and worship addressed them concerning their charity toward the saints in Jerusalem. He was not asking them to pass a collection plate, but rather he instructed them "let every one of you lay by him in store." Meaning; don't put off charity. Make it a priority that after the Sabbath, on the first day of the week, to gather up the things you have at home to give and get them ready (in storage) for when Paul comes, for "there be no gatherings when I come."

You made some valid points.

Question: Why would Paul tell them to gather their offering on the first day and not the second, third and so forth. It seems that the first day was when they assembled as a whole and brought their offerings (charity). This seems to be inline with their gathering together on the 1st day for fellowship and worship.

I understand this section 'that there be no gathering when I come', to mean gathering of offerings not assembly. Basicly what he means was, set aside your offerings on the 1st day of each week, so that when he comes they dont have to worry about collecting chairty and rasing money at that time because it will be already in storage waiting, so that Paul could focus on other issues such as the preaching of the word and fellowship. In my logic. it seems that the best time to take up offering would be when everyone was assembled (1st day of each week).

The reason Paul didn

[BlindSeeker]

Hi ive only read the first and last page so i dont know what others inbetween have said. I want share what i learnt from the teachings of that mighty revivalist and solid theologian Charles G Finney.

1) The sabbath does not and cannot mean the day known as saturday. Simply because of the different time zones which mean it cannot be strictly adhered.

2) The sabbath means a seventh part and this is proved from scripture elsewhere. ( sorry forgotten them but im sure if you seeek you will find.) Therefore anyone keeping a seventh part of the week is keeping the sabbath.

3) The sabbath was a day of rest and instruction, instituted to commemorate the work of creation ( By Jesus Himself John 1:1-3 )

4) The disciples met on the first day of the week for rest and instruction to commemorate the infinatley greater work of salvation,that Jesus again had acheived.

5) The Lord of the sabbath clearly states that "let no man tell you what days to keep".

It is my observation then that the two important things, are that humans get sufficient rest and that a day be set aside in every society for the teaching of the way, the worship of God above all else, and the opportunity for unbelievers to see that God is to be worshipped and adored above the interests of commerce. In theory it seems ok for each person to determine their own rest day, and i am not to judge but i think we lose alot when we cannot agree as a whole for a particular day.

Even Charles Finney can be wrong.

[Guest shiloh357]

1) The sabbath does not and cannot mean the day known as saturday. Simply because of the different time zones which mean it cannot be strictly adhered.

that is ridiculous. Of course there are different time zones. People keep the Sabbath as it applies to the time zone they are in. Jewish people have been keeping the Sabbath all over the world for oever 2 millenia, they have never seen time zones as a problem.

2) The sabbath means a seventh part and this is proved from scripture elsewhere. ( sorry forgotten them but im sure if you seeek you will find.) Therefore anyone keeping a seventh part of the week is keeping the sabbath.

No, God defines exactly which day of the week is the Sabbath in Scripture. There is only Sabbath and it is not arbitrary.

3) The sabbath was a day of rest and instruction, instituted to commemorate the work of creation ( By Jesus Himself John 1:1-3 )

It is also a memorial of Israel's freedom from bondage in Egypt. (Deut. 5:15)

4) The disciples met on the first day of the week for rest and instruction to commemorate the infinatley greater work of salvation,that Jesus again had acheived.

Actually, they met every day, not just on the first day of week. The NT is very explicit that they were Sabbath observant as were the myriads of Jewish believers in Israel during their ministry.

5) The Lord of the sabbath clearly states that "let no man tell you what days to keep".

No, Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" which is a direct quote from the Talmud. Jesus cited that passage to emphasize that the most Sabbath worthy thing a person could do is that which is good for others.

Secondly it was Paul who said, "let no man judge you..." in reference to Sabbath days, and his reason for saying that was to counteract the teachings of the Gnostics who were discouraging the early Christians from keeping holy days like the Sabbath or the New Moon.

The unfortunate butchery of the passage has led people to think that Paul was telling the Colossians not to let the Jews judge them for not keeping the Sabbath. What he was saying was not to let the Gnostics judge you FOR keeping it.

[JCISGD]

1) The sabbath does not and cannot mean the day known as saturday. Simply because of the different time zones which mean it cannot be strictly adhered.

that is ridiculous. Of course there are different time zones. People keep the Sabbath as it applies to the time zone they are in. Jewish people have been keeping the Sabbath all over the world for oever 2 millenia, they have never seen time zones as a problem.

2) The sabbath means a seventh part and this is proved from scripture elsewhere. ( sorry forgotten them but im sure if you seeek you will find.) Therefore anyone keeping a seventh part of the week is keeping the sabbath.

No, God defines exactly which day of the week is the Sabbath in Scripture. There is only Sabbath and it is not arbitrary.

3) The sabbath was a day of rest and instruction, instituted to commemorate the work of creation ( By Jesus Himself John 1:1-3 )

It is also a memorial of Israel's freedom from bondage in Egypt. (Deut. 5:15)

4) The disciples met on the first day of the week for rest and instruction to commemorate the infinatley greater work of salvation,that Jesus again had acheived.

Actually, they met every day, not just on the first day of week. The NT is very explicit that they were Sabbath observant as were the myriads of Jewish believers in Israel during their ministry.

5) The Lord of the sabbath clearly states that "let no man tell you what days to keep".

No, Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" which is a direct quote from the Talmud. Jesus cited that passage to emphasize that the most Sabbath worthy thing a person could do is that which is good for others.

Secondly it was Paul who said, "let no man judge you..." in reference to Sabbath days, and his reason for saying that was to counteract the teachings of the Gnostics who were discouraging the early Christians from keeping holy days like the Sabbath or the New Moon.

The unfortunate butchery of the passage has led people to think that Paul was telling the Colossians not to let the Jews judge them for not keeping the Sabbath. What he was saying was not to let the Gnostics judge you FOR keeping it.

Hi Shiloh, Ooops your right it was Paul, who said "Let no man judge". But come on thats stretching it. Do you think a Christian or Jew would care if a Gnostic was opposing them?. Sorry but your the one butchering i think. It is clear enough teaching and enforced by Galations 3:1-5 and 5:1-4.

Sorry again if it blows your theology, but the spirit of the law (intention) is that every seventh day be kept, you missed my point i think, that those in a different time zone are according to you beaking the sabbath. Here in NZ it is a complete different day from the european world.

You are right God does not arbituraly make laws, they are law because they are good, hence the saying " the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath". It is not a slavish law but a principle of rest to be adhered to for our good.

The sabbath day was not instituted untill Moses, so if God was as insistant about the exact day He would have said before then. The law was given to Moses to set the Jews apart as a light to the nations, and a school master to lead us to Christ. But now Christ has come all that has been superseeded with a better way.

The Christians continued to meet on the sabbath to outreach to the Jews and they met on the First day of the week for more intimate fellowship and freedom of worship.

Mate if you want to try to be holy before God by keeping certain laws your welcome, but i know my redeemer lives and why He came to set us free. No man will enter heaven by keeping the law, but by faith in Jesus ressurected and a living reality in the heart of every believer by the power and presence of Holy Spirit.

Totally right Blindseeker, Finney absolutley was a failable person just like you and I, I dont believe what he says just because he said it, but because upon many proofs he proves it to me and Holy Spirit gives witness to it, and his ministry attests to Gods blessing upon it. Its strange that people think God will send revival to people in error, and in this way encourage further error. No as He says in 2 chron 7:14 IF we..Humble ourselves, TURN from OUR wicked ways, and PRAY (fervently,with holy hands), He WILL hear us and heal our land ( send REVIVAL).

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh, Ooops your right it was Paul, who said "Let no man judge". But come on thats stretching it. Do you think a Christian or Jew would care if a Gnostic was opposing them?. Sorry but your the one butchering i think. It is clear enough teaching and enforced by Galations 3:1-5 and 5:1-4.

The Gnostics were a cult that crept into the Christian Church and taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh, as the Gnostics believed that everything pertaining to the physical world was sinful by virtue of being physical, meaning that the physical body was evil as well. In addition, since festivals and holy days sanctify matter, time and space in this world, they are in Gnostic thinking evil. This would include Sabbaths, new moons and such. It wouldn't if they were Jewish or not. If they pertained to this world, that alone made them sinful. It is also the Gnostics that introduced ascetism and self abuse such as beating your self, starvation and sleep deprivation as a way of punishing one's self for having a sinful body.

As for Galatians... If you bother to read the letter as it is intended to be understood, it is not "anti-law." The heresy Paul was addressing was that of a sect of Judaizers who were telling the Galatian congregation that they had to convert to the Jewish religion and become physical members of Israel in order to be saved. Hence the controversy over circumcision. The Galatians were led astray and were thinking that they had to become Jews in addition to faith in Christ in order to enter the Kingdom of God. It was this heresy that led to decision that was made in Acts 15. Paul was not criticizing because they were keeping the Sabbath or what not. It was that these things were being done within the context of adding to the gospel thus providing the wrong conext and motive for such observances.

Sorry again if it blows your theology, but the spirit of the law (intention) is that every seventh day be kept,

No, the "spirit" of the law where the Sabbath is concerned is what it teaches us about Christ and the fact that it points to only one way of salvation. For that reason, picking any old day to be the Sabbath is like saying you can get saved any way you want. The Sabbath teaches that there is ONE way salvation. Your view warps that picture. It when you are born again, that you honor the Spirit of the Sabbath.

you missed my point i think, that those in a different time zone are according to you beaking the sabbath.

I did not miss your point. I dismissed it as ridiculous. God knew all about time zones. The Jewish people know all about time zones and there has never been a problem with Jews celebrating the Sabbath in New York several hours after the Jews in Israel or Europe. It is observed when it comes to your zone. So, you are raising a nonissue.

You are right God does not arbituraly make laws, they are law because they are good, hence the saying " the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath". It is not a slavish law but a principle of rest to be adhered to for our good.

I did not say God arbitrarily made laws. I said that it is not up to man to arbitrarily decide which day is the Sabbath. When Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, He was countering the misapplication of extrabiblical restrictions placed on the people by the Rabbis of the time. In no way was He setting anything aside or teaching that the Sabbath is whatever you want it to be.

The sabbath day was not instituted untill Moses, so if God was as insistant about the exact day He would have said before then.

When God gave the double portion of manna on the sixth day, and no manna on the seventh day, He showed the children of Israel which day it was. For fourty years, there was no manna on the Seventh day, and Jews have been observing it ever since. Jesus never told them they were observing the Sabbath on the wrong day.

The Christians continued to meet on the sabbath to outreach to the Jews and they met on the First day of the week for more intimate fellowship and freedom of worship

That is a motive YOU are assigning to them. The Bible does not claim that they kept the Sabbath for "outreach." These first Chrstians were Jews. The coming of Jesus was not the start of a new religion but the fulfillment of the Torah and the prophets read every Sabbath in the synagogue. For them it was the fulfillment of their already existant Jewish faith. They were still Torah observant Jews and the Bible bears that out.

Mate if you want to try to be holy before God by keeping certain laws your welcome, but i know my redeemer lives and why He came to set us free.

I don't keep the Sabbath, nor am I Torah observant beyond the ethical commandments. I simply defend those who do keep such observances from people like you who try to assign false values to them, like you just did to me. Just because someone is keeping the Sabbath or the dietary commandments or whatever does not mean they are trying be saved by means of those observances. That is value you have no right to assign to others. That is something you had better get straight in your head, "mate."