SAVED or ........SAVED then LOST?

[angels4u]

Munari,

How can that be if I'm forgiven already? Jesus purified me when He accepted me and the Bible says I'm a saint, is that not enough?

I'm looking for heaven, not for purgetory,what do you think happens in purgetory? do we get Bible teaching? How can we be more purified then being washed in Jesus Blood?

Angels

[munari]

There's some theological differences here. The RCC teaches that Baptism removes original sin from our souls and any other sins we may have committed BEFORE baptism. Any sin after that has to be forgiven.

Now, this isn't necessarily Catholic teaching here, but this is how I conceptualize Christ's redemptive work for us. Christ came into the world and gave us the opportunity to be saved and to save us if we cooperate with him. If we resist the spirit, either by not accepting Christ at all or by continually living our old life style by continuing in the same sins, we will not be saved.

Now, as most of you know, I believe that we can lose our salvation. However, I do realize that "lose our salvation" is kind of rediculous when speaking about God because God knows if we are going to be saved or not from the start. However, from our view point, it means that we must remain vigilant for we know not when the master will return. So, from the Catholic view, we know that if we were to die right after cofession, we would go to Heaven. However, if we were to die after committing a mortal sin, the catechism tells us that we are no longer in a state of grace and will be damned, unless God takes extreme mercy on us for when we commit a mortal sin, we are turning our back on God.

[munari]

I just realized I didn't answer your question about what happens in Purgatory. Well, no one alive knows exactly what happens, but the Bible gives some clues. Christ speaks of no one reaching heaven without paying every penny of what they owe. Paul speaks of being saved, but only through purification of fire. I'll just throw those out there for now without further explanation or without the verses because I have some work to do. If I have an opportunity later and you don't know what I refer to, let me know and I'll look up those passages for you.

[elect]

Angels said, "Elect, thak you for ansering my question, I agree with you for 100% ,we can not play games with God, one day saved, other day lost...... my God is able to keep me until the end, and nobody can pluck me out of His hand!!"

Isn't it comforting to know this truth?!

And also, "How can that be if I'm forgiven already? Jesus purified me when He accepted me and the Bible says I'm a saint, is that not enough?

I'm looking for heaven, not for purgetory,what do you think happens in purgetory? do we get Bible teaching? How can we be more purified then being washed in Jesus Blood?"

Nothing but the Blood! Do you see how great the differences are between us and the RC's on salvation? Either Jesus saves, or He doesn't. If He saves, then He saves all the way to Heaven(do not pass purgatory, do not collect flames or punishment). If your sins are paid for, they're paid for! If they are not, the flames will *not* be temporary.

Munari said, "There's some theological differences here"

Thats a tremendous understatement. :sarcasm:

" I do realize that "lose our salvation" is kind of rediculous when speaking about God because God knows if we are going to be saved or not from the start."

Hold onto that thought, Munari . How could God know something that was uncertain? If He knows it, its certain.

He knows the final end because He chooses it(Eph.1.4,5).

[wordsower]

Hey Munari,

However, if we were to die after committing a mortal sin, the catechism tells us that we are no longer in a state of grace and will be damned, unless God takes extreme mercy on us for when we commit a mortal sin, we are turning our back on God.

Read Romans 5

It is too long to type out.  It shows the great contrast between righteousness and condemnation.  Before the cross what you said would be true, but with grace we who are saved are no longer condemned for our sin.  IT has been paid for already.  Whether it's big sin or little sin or lots of sin or sin right before you die, it's paid for if you believe in Christ.

So, if it's paid for, God has forgotten it, thrown it into the depth of the sea never to be remembered.  That 's it!  How can we pay for it in pergatory?  To do so would be to redo what is already done for us.  That puts the burden of sin back on us, which is the reason Jesus had to die, to be the burden for us.

We are seen as the righteousness of God, not because we are so "good and righteous"  because the debt has been paid and we are CLEAN!  Glory!!

[munari]

Elect,

How could God know something that was uncertain? If He knows it, its certain. He knows the final end because He chooses it(Eph.1.4,5).

That's right, if he knows it, it is certain. But, my question is (and this isn't meant to be a judgement, just a question), how do YOU know that God knows you are saved? That's the crux. God knows who is and who isn't saved, we won't know for sure until we are in Heaven.

[CWJ]

munari

I feel you haven't answered my questions in the "specific" way I was asking.  The verses you used I feel you have misinterpreted.

I am very confident in the bible I use.  It IS God's word.

I am not wanting to argue the false Catholic teachings you are blinded with.

I only want to tell the truth of Jesus and His saving power.  I do this with many scriptures.

I pray your eyes will be opened by the Holy spirit. :inlove:

We know for sure now, in the present tense we ARE SAVED:

1John5;13..."These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

This verse SPECIFICALLY lets us know we can KNOW now.  No waiting and wondering

Another hard scriptural proof of NOT loosing salvation:

1.  We must be 'born again"...John3:3 (KJV)

2.  We must overcome, and this is done by doing #1 above:

1John5:4.."For whatsoever is born of God ("born again") OVERCOMETH the world:  and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."  KJV

3.  We are specifically promised to never "be blotted out".

Rev3:5.."He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;  AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels."

Now that's HARD evidence!    OSAS   SPECIFICS!

What happens when we die?

2Cor5:8.."We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

All of the above show that we ARE SAVED before physical death......no purgatory, no need, no scriptural evidence(hard).

2John5:.."We know that whosoever IS BORN OF GOD sinneth not;  but he that is begotton of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

NOPE, don't need no purgatory, our sins are no more, for His Spirit lives in us, washing us free of sin by His Blood.  At the physical death our sins have already been atoned for, GO TO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN, DO NOT PASS hell!  

Peace, Carl...OSAS

[munari]

Can you ask the questions as specifically as you can then?

My eyes are wide open.

[wordsower]

What about Romans 5??

[elect]

Munari asked, "how do YOU know that God knows you are saved? That's the crux. God knows who is and who isn't saved, we won't know for sure until we are in Heaven."

When we are given faith to trust Him. Carl has given some excellent verses already in his last post. One of them was in

2 Cor. chap.5. If you will look that verse up, look also at the

seventh verse-

"(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)"              2 Cor.5.7

It is normal for us to want to walk by sight; that is, we want an absolute guarantee of Heaven for our souls. The Lord has

provided, in His own way, for that assurance. But it must happen in *His* way, not the way we would dictate and demand from Him(if we could). All the work has been done for His elect children. We are even given faith to believe that Christ's sacrifice is *enough*. Now the faith that we are given is enough, but our assurance wavers. As someone said 'we often tremble upon the Rock, but the Rock never trembles under us.' Its alright if your assurance is not strong at all times. But *know* that there is no deficiency in God's plan. Read the Bible daily, pray earnestly to know His saving grace in your life. Take hold of those precious promises in the Bible. Make them your constant companions in all of life.

We know that we *can* have a firm confidence that we will

*be with Jesus*, because of the language of the Bible, and the trust we have in this God, that we have come to know, as a God who plans perfectly and completes His purposes without any glich. We come to know Him by the gift of His Spirit in us, and by studying to show ourselves approved unto God. This is the Lord's way. Trust Him to do all His good pleasure. Seek for the good fruit in your own life.

The problem of lacking assurance is usually of our own making. We are truly our own worst enemies, in many respects. When we live in known sin, we injure, or rob ourselves of, assurance. But the other extreme is just as bad.

I mean when we are trusting to our own 'contribution' to 'our

salvation'. We will destroy ourselves, if we try to add anything to Christ's perfect and completed work at Calvary.

If we try to add 'our faith', as a cause of salvation; or our penance, or our prayers( as a cause, or a reason, for God saving you), or *any* good work which we have done, or will do; we are defeating the purpose of Jesus' coming here(as far as we, ourselves, are concerned). That is why it is so important that you come to a right understanding of God's salvation plan, and to a Gospel that truly saves to the uttermost(even to the gutter-most), and truly gives all the glory to God- where it belongs. You cannot do this, though, while you are clinging to some doctrine of 'co-operating' with

God to save you. For *that* would not be grace, and the Lord's salvation is grace-

"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

  Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zarubbabe[Christ is our Zerubbabel] thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."                               Zech.4.6,7

Please look up the verses that Carl has given, they will help you, if you have the Spirit.