Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[nebula]

OK, I'm really not a good debater, and I managed to weave a lousy argument and dropped myself into a rabbit hole.

Word crafting and me mix together like oil and water.

So I'm going to lay of the outmaneuvering of theological philosophy and focus on something more tangible.

A Muslim - I'd like to offer you a challenge.

Ask your Allah why he loves you.

I would like for you to relay what he speaks to you. (And I don't mean "what does the Koran say?" I mean what is he speaking to you personally.)

[traveller]

Please do not post outside links that go to Muslim or atheist sites.

Thank you.

[Guest]

Jesus!

My Sure Hope

And hope maketh not ashamed;

because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Romans 5:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

[quote

.....]Sorry, but you are a Muslim and are not theologically equipped to tell me anything about what sound or basic belief is or is not. I do not recognize any authority on your part in this area.

So do I need to believe so that the Holy Spirit can work in me?

[Dog House Bill]

What Context? the qu`ran has no contextual structure to it! Each chapter is lined up based on its length, not on what it says.

That doesn't negate the fact that each Sura has it's own context, the problem is that you know nothing about Islam except from islamophobian sites and think that this way you know about it more than Muslims. You are simply deluded.

Further more, I am fighting against a muslim, you. Anybody who disagrees with your teaching is fighting against a muslim. therefore, we are now subject to those passages, you must seek us out, and murder us, if you want to be a true believing muslim.

Read the verses again:

YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Actually we distinguish between non-Muslims who fight Islam and those who don't:

8. ALLAH forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, ALLAH loves those who are equitable.

9. ALLAH only forbids you respecting those who have fought against you on account of your religion and have driven you out of your homes, and have helped others in driving you out, that you make friends with them, and whosoever makes friends with them - it is these that are transgressors.(Holy Quran 60:8-9)

Again, I reject the lies of that insane false prophet muhammad. His words come straight from the devil which makes muhammad his son.

Well mr dog, I can just answer you by one word: the caravan goes, and dogs bark, you insult Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), that won't harm him, you are just harming yourself by barking.

Which is about the worst insult a muslim can use. Calling someone a dog. (Dog House Bill being his worthy name aside). What is it about Muslims and dog saliva?

I really hope that is not what you are doing, but the tone of your answer leads me to think that you have.

If the truth being spoken here is nothing more than a dog barking to you, then there is no longer any reason to continue this thread and the mods should lock this thread from further posts. As for your insult, towards me and my Lord Jesus, who is God in the flesh, I would rather be called a dog than submit to anything that satan son mohhamad wrote while under the duress of heat exhaustion. Also, why didn't you repost the citation I provided with the passages from the qu`ran that I used? My information comes from a islamic site. I read it and made my own decisions on how evil it is, you should do the same.

you are correct about one thing, insulting muhhamad wont harm him in the least as he is dead and long turned to dust. But that begs the question, if muhammad is dead and no longer affected by insults, why are so many Christians and others who discredit his name put to death by islamic followers? If your "religion" is not a murder cult as I have proven, then why are so many Christians in countries such as Ache, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. being pulled from their homes and executed in the street with full approval of the islamic backed governments? Though these fellow Christians are highly honored by Jesus for their sacrifice, the blood that was shed shall be repaid for at the final judgment day. Is this the muslim plan for America? turn us into another muslim only country? another country where free speech is declared illegal unless it favors islam? Oh wait, that has already happened, in Deer born Michigan, a group of Christians were silently protesting the islamic celebration of rahmedahn, perfectly legal, but were arrested for disturbing the peace. This as well as many other muslim infringements to our rights can be found at any news agency web page.

[other one]

And please do not tag A Muslim as nonbeliever.

It is an insult to all decent unbelievers who would never dream to allow Islam's barbaric laws and customs

in the civilized world.

Actually Islam is enemy number one for unbelievers in Europe. Secular people are the last ones left to fight their

attempt to force us to follow their medieval customs. Christians here are much too tolerant and fearful

to hurt their feelings.

The big unanswered question we have is: if they do not appreciate are laws and culture, why do not they go back home?

We are even ready to pay the flight ticket.

Because there ultimate goal is to "Make" you submit to Allah.

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually I am not trying to impose something on to the text that is not there, the verse is clearly saying what I am say God is neither a man nor the son of man, I said nothing outside that.

I am not arguing that God is a man. The heart of Christianity is that God too human flesh upon Himself to become one of us in order to redeem us from sin. Jesus is God incarnate. He is God in human form.

Jesus never said I am God explicitly as he said I am a man and the son of man, and you admit that he never said it explicitly, as he was concerned with more important things, wasn't that what you said before.

Jesus did not say, "I am God" in so many words. He did not have to in order to prove His deity. Jesus' purpose in coming to earth was to redeem man from sin. He did not come to earth to prove His deity, although He did and even His enemies understood Him to claim to be God. YOU are trying to muddy the water as to what Jesus meant when He said certain things.

Yes, God does what he wants and as he pleases, but He doesn't contradict Himself, and if He really became a son of man, then he is repenting when he said first that he is not the son of man to repent, but he repented and became a man and the son of man.

Jesus did not claim to be "a son of man." Jesus claimed to be THE Son of Man. The Son of Man was a title reserved in Jewish theology for the Messiah. The phrase "son of man" was a generic term someone who was merely human. There is marked difference between claiming that someone is "The Son of Man" and merely "a son of man."

Then as you are the one who is making a disctinction, you need to provide evidence that it means equality in case of Jesus and doesn't mean it in case of others. Till now I haven't seen you provide any evidence but faith only.

Not true. I referenced Jesus' use of the term when He called two of His disciples "sons of thunder." Jesus equated their violent tempers with the violent sound of thunder.

So actually Jesus is also emulating God's moral qualities.

No, Jesus is God. Jesus is doing what God does.

So as these verses doesn't mean the believers are equal to God, verses telling Jesus is the son of God doesn't mean he is equal to God.

Wrong. What you don't understand is that in places like say, the book of John, the phrase "son" when referring to people as "sons of God" is the Greek word tekna. However when refrencing Jesus, John uses a different word and He uses it exclusivlely in reference to Jesus. John uses the word huios. He uses that word to denote Jesus' uniqueness as "The Son of God." He never uses huios to refer to humans as "sons of God."

Your point would have been true if these magistrates were really equal to God in being, so when Jesus uses them as an example, he is actually proving that he is God, but this is not true, as these magistrates are mere human beings, not really gods.

That's my point. They were not gods, but it was not blasphemy to refer to them as "elohim" given that it was a term that denote their role as Elohim's reprsentatives.

So Jesus is giving an example of mere human beings called gods and it wasn't blasphemy to say that calling himself a son of God doesn't mean blasphemy because he didn't mean to be equal to God as these people were never meant to be equal to God.

Wrong again. Jesus was not calling Himself "a son of God." Rather He called Himself "The Son of God." The word again being used is "huios" and demonstrates His lesser to to greater argument. They are elohim and as such they have no claim to deity. However, Jesus uses the word "huios" thus denoting His deity as "THE Son of God."

[Guest shiloh357]

So as they were created by God, Jesus was created by God. God can do anything, he can create a man with no earthly father, that doesn't mean that this man is God.

No, Jesus IS the Creator. The attests that it was Jesus who created the universe.

So as God conferred this appellation upon them, He conferred this appellation among Jesus, that doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

Wrong. Jesus was from time immemorial in the infathomable eternal past, God. There has never been a time that Jesus did not exist or that Jesus was not God. Jesus has no beginning or end according to the Bible.

So the word in itself doesn't mean that Jesus is eternal, it have been used for David and David died, you believe that it refers to Jesus to be eternal, this is your conclusion through other verses which I have already answered, so this verse in itself doesn't mean that Jesus is eternal.

It is used for David's Kingdom, not the physical man, David. The term "David" is used prophetically for Christ because He is of David's royal line and it was to David that the prophecy of an eternal Kingdom was made. The Bible constantly refers to David's Kingdom as an eternal Kingdom and is the Kingdom from which Jesus will one day rule the world from Israel.

Again you are just stating what you believe, Jesus never said that he is God dwelling with the people through this verse, but again, the verse is talking about name not what he was to be regarded.

You obviously don't understand how it works and no amount of explaining it to you over and over will do any good. Immanuel is not the Name of Jesus. It is a title reflecting His character. You (for obvious reasons) cannot accept that but your rejection of the facts is futile.

Well, I see that I have already refuted the verses you gave by giving examples of what other people were told to be the same as what Jesus was told to be as the word son of God or God or saying that Jesus is eternal,

You have not "refuted" anything. All you have done is try to muddy the waters and confuse clear speech. You cannot deal with what the Scriptures say, so you resort to pretending that they don't say what they say. That is not refutation; it is the desparate actions of someone who is losing the debate.

Quote

Being THE Messiah has everything to do with Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Quote

Sorry, but you are a Muslim and are not theologically equipped to tell me anything about what sound or basic belief is or is not. I do not recognize any authority on your part in this area.

So do I need to believe so that the Holy Spirit can work in me?

I think you need to believe so that you can be cleansed of your sin and receive the gift of eternal life. As it stands, you are sliding down a greased pole straight into hell. Allah and Muhammad can't save you. Neither of them died for your sins.

Revelation has been rejected by many Early Church Fathers. If Jesus wanted to say that he is God, he needn't come to a vision 70 years after he was rose from Earth.

Yeah it was rejected by early church heretics. The early church included it in the canon and it is accepted as Scripture by the majority of Christean leaders for over 1,500 years. The fact remains that Jesus called Himself God in that book, by taking on Himself the titles that belong exclusively to God.

If this is what you meant then this is what we Muslims believe for ourselves, so when Jesus says, who follow me will have an eternal life, that won't make him God, as within that concept we believe the same for following Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).

Except that said this about Himself: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through me." (John 14:6) Eternal life comes through Jesus and Jesus alone. There is no salvation no hope and certainly no truth in Allah or Muhammad. Muhammad is in hell. If you want salvation, you can only find it through Christ and NO ONE else. Jesus does not claim that to follow Him is the way to have eternal life. Jesus claims to BE Eternal Life.

It DID exclude Himself and the Holy Spirit from being God as the word ONLY excludes any other one that the Father including Himself and the Holy Spirit as they are distinct from the Father. Jesus is so clear, you are the one who try to get out of his words to fit your belief.

You simply don't understand the relationship of the Son with the Father. God is one. Jesus and the Father are God. Jesus was praying to the Father as a man, but that did not exclude His deity. Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are God, like it or not.

Actually he said it elsewhere:

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

You may say that he was just quoting the commandment, but actually if Jesus meant to exclude himself, he would have done it, but actually paraphrased the commandment and Jesus didn't correct him.

Jesus WAS quoting Scripture. He was asked what the greatest commandment was and He presented it. He was quoting the text. What I said was that Jesus did not say include Himself with the phrase "our God" when speaking to Mary after His resurrection.

When I say to another Muslim "my God and your God is Allah" doesn't mean that it has two definitions for each of us.

Yes, but you are not Human and Divine. Jesus' expression denotes the uniqueness of His relationship with the Father that is different than what a man experiences. You are not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that, though.

Well, I have answered nebula before concerning this verse. Calling him "my Lord" doesn't mean that he is God as mentioned before, and calling him "my God" can't mean that he is God since it clearly contradicts with what Jesus (Peace be upon him) said to the Father:

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

No, it only contradicts your feeble and unlearned opinion about the text.

Thomas said this here as an exclamation as when one says

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course it does. To be God's servant means that he is not God as God is not a servant, He is God. The word servant means weakness, and this has nothing to do with God.

God is a servant. Maybe your "allah" is not a servant, but YHVH, the true God is a servant. It is one of His attributes as God. God is always seeking for what makes for our highest good. God is love and love is always a servant.

So this is a monarchy of godhead. A suboridnate god and a superior god? Sorry, if this is not considered as polytheism, I don't know what polytheism would be.

Wrong. Not subordinate in terms of being (God) but subrodinate in terms of rank and role. Jesus and the Father are not two God. They are the same essential being, but are different persons.

Then you get upset when some people say that Christianity has pagan origins. I don't see a difference between this belief and what the Greek and Roman heathens believed.

Actually Islam is far and way one of the most pagan religions of modern times. Christianity is not pagan at all. We serve the one true God YHVH of Israel. You serve a false god and trust in the empty babblings of an insane, dead prophet.

Omniscence means that he knows everything, Jesus didn't say that he knew everthing, to know what people thought doesn't mean that he knew everything, as he didn't know other things and never said that this was a temporary case, so this is a clear violation to omniscence.

Being able to read the hearts and minds of people is one way demonstrating omnscience.

Well, I think that translators knew Hebrew as well as you do and most probably more than you do. They didn't translate it the way you do.

The fact remains that there was no direct article in that verse.

[Botz]

Is Jesus G-d?

To answer succinctly one would need to understand in the fullest sense what makes G-d, G-d, and then see if Jesus measures up, because Isaiah is very clear about the nature, power and authority of YHVH.

43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

46: (5 & 9) 5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

These verses demonstrate a number of things, not least the fact that G-d is so unique in His glory and majesty, that there is no one like Him....not even comparable...G-d is as far removed from anyone being even faintly comparable, as the East is from the West. Indeed our G-d is an Awesome G-d.