Are we punished for sinning?

[enoob57]

What is the difference between discipline and punishment?

Discipline is the narrow gate away from disobedience... hard is the way and few that find it! Matt 7:14

Punishment are for those who will not seek the gate because of the hardness of the travel! Matt 7:13

[sheya joie]

Hi bro, just mulling this over a bit and thinking aloud.

I would say that the consequences of Adams sin resulted in physical death (eventually) and intimate relationship (immediately), and that being the case we are still being punished for Adam's sin otherwise what is death and why does it occur?

Adam's sin was paid for on the cross. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death/separation from God), but we have not been redeemed from the curse of the law. We still die because we are yet awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

I don't understand the bolded part above. Is there possibly a typo in it? It seems to say that we both have been AND have NOT been redeemed from the same thing?

[xequedox]

intention is good to talk about when it comes to this because how is a fool who does not whats he does accountable for his sins?

It is true that god looks upon the heart not the sin.Such so we must learn from our sin and cease to live in a state of sin

If you say anything in a given conversation supporting a topic like *pool is a fun game to play* then you also make connections to things supporting pool ;how the concept of it is great and we dwell in the joy of playing pool,but just as well some don't know what their really saying yet in this case if you apply this to sin you are accountable as such because you DON'T want to dwell in the joys of sin you want to dwell in the love of the father.Of course as well we are accountable for what we do as we are saved by him we can live by the knowledge of life not the knowledge of good and evil such so we must not incessantly sin ;that's goes saying i don't think anyone who would have this knowledge would want to intentionally sin lol

[other one]

Hi bro, just mulling this over a bit and thinking aloud.

I would say that the consequences of Adams sin resulted in physical death (eventually) and intimate relationship (immediately), and that being the case we are still being punished for Adam's sin otherwise what is death and why does it occur?

Adam's sin was paid for on the cross. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death/separation from God), but we have not been redeemed from the curse of the law. We still die because we are yet awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

I don't understand the bolded part above. Is there possibly a typo in it? It seems to say that we both have been AND have NOT been redeemed from the same thing?

It appears to me to be saying that we have been redeemed from the spiritual side of the consequences of Adams sin, but not yet the physical. We will not be redeemed on the physical side of things until the resurection...... but we do have the promice of it's coming.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi bro, just mulling this over a bit and thinking aloud.

I would say that the consequences of Adams sin resulted in physical death (eventually) and intimate relationship (immediately), and that being the case we are still being punished for Adam's sin otherwise what is death and why does it occur?

Adam's sin was paid for on the cross. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death/separation from God), but we have not been redeemed from the curse of the law. We still die because we are yet awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

I don't understand the bolded part above. Is there possibly a typo in it? It seems to say that we both have been AND have NOT been redeemed from the same thing?

Yes, it was a typo. It should have read: "We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death/separation from God), but we have not been redeemed from the curse of the fall."

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 05 December 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

Quote

Hi bro, just mulling this over a bit and thinking aloud.

I would say that the consequences of Adams sin resulted in physical death (eventually) and intimate relationship (immediately), and that being the case we are still being punished for Adam's sin otherwise what is death and why does it occur?

Adam's sin was paid for on the cross. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law (spiritual death/separation from God), but we have not been redeemed from the curse of the fall. We still die because we are yet awaiting the redemption of our bodies.

I think that is what I just said in so many words.

We have not been redeemed from the curse of fall. The curse of the fall pertains to the consequenes of man's fall. Those are not curses that God has put on man, but the rather the built-in consequences of sin. God is not punishing us for Adam's sin

I don't quite see that. We bear in our bodies the sentence of death, because in Adam all die....this is a direct consequence of Adams sin, and has been passed on through the Human race...our death of this physical body is a living testimony to the consequences of sin, and an example of the judgment of G-d....it is a fact that we will die as a direct result of the just punishment G-d decreed if His instructions were disobeyed.

It is is not a punishment decreed by God. God did not inflict death upon man. He did not inflict pain on women in childbirth. The Bible tells us that death came by Adam. It is the consequence of Adam's action.

Far from making the atoning sacrifice of the Lamb of G-d meaningless, it vindicates the righteousness of G-d who provided a way out ....death has been justly decreed, G-d does not go back on His word, and even the sacrifice of Jesus does not stop death. The purpose of the atoning blood was not to stop physical death...it was to pay the price required for our redemption, turn away the wrath of G-d and restore the relationship.

What I said was that if we are still being punished for Adam's sin, the Jesus' sacrifice meaningless because HE bore the full punishment for sin. He paid for it so we would not have to.

Far from detracting from the Glory of G-d, it establishes His utter love for us and demonstrates the lengths He is prepared to go to...even death on the cross. It is beyond comprehension that the Father who had enjoyed unbroken fellowship with the Son from all eternity was prepared to let Him become the sin which He hated so that we might live.

What diminishes the glory of God is the assertion that we are still paying for Adam's sin. If that assertion were true, Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient.

2Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This refers to the dual imputation of our sin and His righteousness. Our sin was imputed to Christ and His righteousnes was imputed to us. In the Greek, it reads that God "treated as sin" he who did not know sin. He is the offering for sin, which would be impossible if Jesus literally became sin. The same is true of us. We are treated as righteous. We are legally declared righteous. We will not realize the impartation of righteousness until the redemption of our bodies. That we become righteous is the goal of redemption.

[Botz]

Botz said...I don't quite see that. We bear in our bodies the sentence of death, because in Adam all die....this is a direct consequence of Adams sin, and has been passed on through the Human race...our death of this physical body is a living testimony to the consequences of sin, and an example of the judgment of G-d....it is a fact that we will die as a direct result of the just punishment G-d decreed if His instructions were disobeyed.

Shiloh replied...It is is not a punishment decreed by God. God did not inflict death upon man. He did not inflict pain on women in childbirth. The Bible tells us that death came by Adam. It is the consequence of Adam's action.

Hmmm....been thinking about it bro, and I see what you are saying. It is a bit like a father telling his son not to touch the flame of the candle or he will get burnt....if the child disobeys, he suffers the consequence, but his father did not punish him, in fact he tried to warn him of the danger and what would happen....

However it was not just the result of doing something foolish, or stupid, but a direct challenge on the authority of G-d...even siding with Satan against Him....and as a result it was G-d who initiated and determined what their punishment would be, and how it would effect the whole world and their life-style....this was nullified, neutralised and swallowed up in victory, as if the blood of the Lamb was and is the antidote to the venom of G-ds wrath.

Numbers 21:6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have a question for you Shiloh357. If we are not being punished for Adam's sin, why do we still die physically? Before Adam sinned, he would have lived forever, but after he partook of the forbidden fruit, death came upon him and all mankind. Jesus paid the price for sin, and the Bible teaches thatthe wages of sinis death. As such, why do we still die physically? Wasn't Jesus death on the cross payment for not only our sins, but Adam's sins? Another question. Why aren't everyone's sins covered? Why are only the sins of some covered, and what is the criteria to receive that forgiveness? I am just curious about your opinion seeing you don't believe in the doctrine of original sin.

The fact that we still face physical death does not mean we are being punished for Adam's sin. The Bible nowhere says we are being punished for what Adam did in the Garden of Eden. What it says is that a result of Adam's sin, we have inherited His sin nature. God is not engaging in collective punishment for Adam's sin.

We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, but not from the curse of the fall. Neither curses were something that God inflicted on mankind. It goes back to what I said earlier about sin having built-in consequences. When you sow into sin, you reap the consequences of the sin you commit.

Jesus death on the cross paid the price for sin in terms of satisfying God's justice. Jesus died on the cross and bore in His sinless body the full weight of God's justice. He bore the curse of sin over all humanity. Salvation occurs in three stages: Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. We have been saved, are being saved and will be saved. We are still in the process of sanctification and will be until death or until the Lord returns which ever comes first. Our bodies have not as of yet been redeemed. It is our hearts/spirits that have been redeemed at this point. Our bodies still bear corruption until the day comes when corruption will put on incorruption. Physical death is the result of sin, but not a punishment for it.

If Jesus paid for our sin, if He was punished for it, then we cannot also be punished for it. If we are still being punished for sin, then Jesus' willingness to bear that punishment on our behalf was a meaningless act. If, by analogy, your son or daughter incurred a debt and you paid the debt on their behalf, only to have the collection agency continue to demand payment from your child, it makes your payment of their debt on their behalf a worthless act.

Jesus paid our sin debt. He satisfied God's judgment and bore the punishment God's justice demanded and He did so we would not have to. To argue that Jesus paid the debt but that we must still pay it as well, makes the sacrifice of Christ meaningless.

[Guest shiloh357]

However it was not just the result of doing something foolish, or stupid, but a direct challenge on the authority of G-d...even siding with Satan against Him....and as a result it was G-d who initiated and determined what their punishment would be, and how it would effect the whole world and their life-style....this was nullified, neutralised and swallowed up in victory, as if the blood of the Lamb was and is the antidote to the venom of G-ds wrath.

Responding to the bolded part...

Actually, the Bible does not say that God determined what the effects would be. God simply delcared the results. It does not say anywhere that God decreed them. I think we read the passage as if God is decreeing punishment, but that is not the case.

[Botz]

However it was not just the result of doing something foolish, or stupid, but a direct challenge on the authority of G-d...even siding with Satan against Him....and as a result it was G-d who initiated and determined what their punishment would be, and how it would effect the whole world and their life-style....this was nullified, neutralised and swallowed up in victory, as if the blood of the Lamb was and is the antidote to the venom of G-ds wrath.

Responding to the bolded part...

Actually, the Bible does not say that God determined what the effects would be. God simply delcared the results. It does not say anywhere that God decreed them. I think we read the passage as if God is decreeing punishment, but that is not the case.

It was these verses that made me consider cause and effect:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field upon thy belly shalt thou go and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel

16 Unto the woman he said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee

17 And unto Adam he said Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee saying Thou shalt not eat of it cursed is the ground for thy sake in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee and thou shalt eat the herb of the field

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground for out of it wast thou taken for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return

Surely bro Adam sinned and he was punished or am I being a bit thick?....the results of his transgressions did not initiate in a vacuum, the L-rd had set certain things in motion....and demonstrated a Law at work, more tangible than gravity, namely that a Holy G-d will not allow sin to go unpunished, and in Adam's case the punishment reached into the whole of the human race...our physical deaths are imminent, G-d has not rescinded His judgment.

My body will die because of Adams sin...because of the penalty for that sin fixed/ordained by G-d