Where does "Grace" end

[Fez]

Let me try and explain what I am seeing in some churches, stay with me, because I am finding it difficult to explain,

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.

Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

"Most theologians believe Paul was speaking of a born again individual in Romans 7:14-7:25. If this is the case, then the huge caveat described by Luther is necessary to understand how they can take this shocking position.

Luther...

"(Paul is) dealing with the Law as it applies the inner man and the will and not with respect to the works of the outer man...The apostle's method of speaking are contrary to the metaphysical or moral methods. For the apostle says what he does in order to indicate (or sound forth) that man rather than sin is taken away, for sin remains as a kind of relic, and man is purged from sin rather than the opposite...Thus it is obvious that the apostle means that sin is taken away by a spiritual means (that is, the will to commit sin is put to death.)...

Hence blessed Augustine...says,

[Guest shiloh357]

Hyper grace is no grace at all. There are two extremes. There are those who think that one sin is enough to send you to hell. Others who think grace is a license to sin without accountability or impunity. Grace is a gift of God we receive by faith and it is the also the means by which we live holy lives. Grace spurs man on to living godly.

Grace saves us from sin into eternal life. Eternal life is not merely a length or span of time. It is the very life of God Himself at work in us and thus it also speaks to a quality of living as well.

[Guest]

We are told that for willful sin after salvation 'there remaineth no sacrifice, but a certain dread, looking for judgment........'

That is a misrepresentation of the passage.

Thank goodness

What do people believe that passage means? I am honestly asking as I have always struggled with that passage.

Clearly

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 26:9

Jesus Saves

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Men Don't

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

See?

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

No?

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:11

____________

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Be Very Blessed

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Joshua-777]

Anyone care to discuss

[rickrussell]

Anyone care to discuss

[Fraught]

It is so crucial, and so often missed, that it is not the things we do that make us right or not right with God. It is not the things we don't do. Rather, it is the kind of person we are becoming. Living under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, you will become the kind of person that that just naturally would do the the things that produce the works/fruit of the Spirit, and the kind of person that just naturally would not do the things that produce the works of the devil. It is really that simple. The process takes time but it is at work in all of us.

As to the original post, Joshua 77 gave the answer I would give, as far as the grace operating regardless of physical circumstance. I could just add 'all things working together for good' wouldn't necessarily prevent you from getting a bruised apple, but may use your getting the bruised apple for the good of the kingdom in some way. (bruised apple, of course, being a metaphor for any number of things.)

[CD2]

Anyone care to discuss

[Openly Curious]

There are "two" laws that apostle Paul addresses in Romans chapter 7 instead of just "one" after Paul went through a hard struggle he came to the conclusion that there were two laws that was warring on the inside of him that was opposed to one another keeping him from doing what he wanted to do for he says in..................

Romans 7:19-22 For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do. vs. 20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. vs. 21) "I FIND THEN A LAW," that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. vs. 22) "For I delight in the LAW of God" after the INWARD MAN:

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another "LAW" in my members, "warring" against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. vs. 24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? vs. 25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. SO THEN with the mind I myself SERVE THE LAW OF GOD; (this is law # 1) but with the flesh the LAW OF SIN. (this is law # 2)

These two laws being "the law of the flesh" and "the law of the Spirit" that are warring or fighting against one another within Paul's body

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, "he is a new creature" old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This scripture has been quoted a many of times even by myself have done so. But there is a truth that is within it that I believe is overlooked and it is the part that says,

he is a "NEW CREATURE"

What does it mean to be a new "CREATURE"? We know that we were born again when we said, yes, to Christ. All of us was born into this world with the nature of Adam as both Adam and Eve sinned and fell and were cursed because of it and the result was that everyone born from that day to this day was "BORN" in sin having a sin nature (the old man)this is the first birth and it is known as the "law of the flesh".

In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus that, except a man be born again that he could not even see the kingdom of God. Being born again by the Spirit of God we are made partakers of the divine nature of God being the "law of the Spirit" (the new man) and even though we have been born again of the Spirit of God we still have to contend with the old nature of sin that we all inherited from Adam.

Being now a NEW CREATURE meaning we have two natures the nature of Adam-law of flesh and the nature of God- law of Spirit within us. Even though we have been saved we still have to contend with this war and fighting of these two natures we have within us as they are contrary to one another. Unfortunately we right now have not been delivered from this body of flesh as it is appointed unto us once to die after that the resurrection where we will receive a glorified body. The body of the flesh we have been born with is tempted with sin by the devil so we will yield to that nature instead of yielding to the Spirit of God whereas the Lord does not tempt his own nature within us for he tempt nobody to sin,.

Galatians 5:16-26 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the Lust of the flesh..............(one cannot walk in the Spirit and the flesh at the same time)

17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are "Contrary" the one to the other: "so ye cannot do the things that ye would"

(This was the struggle Paul talked about in Romans 7 the things he wanted to do he couldn't because the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit were fighting against one another being "contrary" warring inside of his self causing him problems with those two laws.

Both the Spirit and the flesh are warring over our "wills" the flesh the nature of Adam were born with is tempted by Satan to get us to yield to sin in our body some of those sins that tempts us with are found in vs. 19-21. But in vs. 18) it tells us that if we be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law- being the law of the flesh. If we yield our wills to the Spirit- being the law of the Spirit then in vs. 22-23 will be the nature of God that we have been made partakers of by the grace of God being set free to choose which nature we wanted to follow the nature of Adam or the divine nature of God. Before being born again we were held in captivity by Satan but the grace of God set us free from that bondage to be able to serve the living God willingly as he will not force us to serve him.

What God did was he made us a new creature meaning we have two nature's now but before salvation we only had one nature being the sin nature we inherited from Adam and God in his grace did not make us a slave to him like Satan made of us we wasn't given a choice in the matter. God gave us of his divine nature so we could make up our own minds to serve God in Spirit or serve Satan and remain in captivity.

Do we want to serve the law of the flesh or the law of the Spirit temptations from the devil will come to those who serve the law of the flesh in their body but if we serve the law of the Spirit the God does not tempt for if we walk in the Spirit then we want fulfill the lust of the flesh.

We are different now we have been saved from those who have never said yes to Christ as they only have one nature and are in bondage to it a slave to Satan in need of the grace of God.

caps are for emphasis only

[enoob57]

Let me try and explain what I am seeing in some churches, stay with me, because I am finding it difficult to explain,

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.

Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

"Most theologians believe Paul was speaking of a born again individual in Romans 7:14-7:25. If this is the case, then the huge caveat described by Luther is necessary to understand how they can take this shocking position.

Luther...

"(Paul is) dealing with the Law as it applies the inner man and the will and not with respect to the works of the outer man...The apostle's method of speaking are contrary to the metaphysical or moral methods. For the apostle says what he does in order to indicate (or sound forth) that man rather than sin is taken away, for sin remains as a kind of relic, and man is purged from sin rather than the opposite...Thus it is obvious that the apostle means that sin is taken away by a spiritual means (that is, the will to commit sin is put to death.)...

Hence blessed Augustine...says, "What are the Laws of God which He Himself has written in our hearts if they are not the very presence of the Holy Spirit, who is the finger of God and by whose presence love is shed abroad in our hearts? And this love is the fulfilling of the Law and the end of the commandment".

link

In other words, only by yielding to the Holy Spirit can the Christian not serve sin. He is powerless in his flesh to do otherwise. Sin will always have the capacity to rule a Christian if he doesn't yield to the Holy Spirit within. So according to Luther and most famous theologians, Romans 7:14-7:25 doesn't teach the Gnostic heresy of it's being acceptable to serve sin in the flesh while serving God in the spirit. Rather, it teaches that the flesh is incapable of serving God, so the Christian can only walk by the power of the Holy Spirit.

it's being acceptable to serve sin in the flesh while serving God in the spirit.

This is what is being taught in some churches. It is ok to sin (to what degree is debatable), because we live under grace! The blood of Jesus has purged us of all sin.....

"The hyper-grace message of the 20th century was largely the result of embarrassment over the Biblical teaching of Hell. Most evangelists and pastors since Billy Sunday are reluctant to teach that God will send a majority of mankind to eternal torture. (I'm sure we all, like Billy Graham, hope we don't fully understand Hell. But since Jesus spoke of Hell more than any other, should we do less? And since Jesus knew more about Hell than any other, (because He made it), we must accept His warnings and example without question.)"

I hope I am explaining what hyper grace is (look it up, there are pages on it).

It stems from pastors telling congregations what they want to hear, not what they should be hearing. And they do this to keep butts on seats on Sundays.

It is a dangerous and growing trend.

They must have ripped this from their instruction Book!

2 Cor 6:14-7:1

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them

And walk among them.

I will be their God,

And they shall be My people."

17 Therefore

"Come out from among them

And be separate, says the Lord.

Do not touch what is unclean,

And I will receive you."

18 'I will be a Father to you,

And you shall be My sons and daughters,

Says the Lord Almighty."

7 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God

NKJV

[Guest shiloh357]

Anyone care to discuss