Tithe???

[Botz]

The terminology of tithes and offerings is only associated with the Temple and those that functioned in certain offices there...which was Shiloh's point, wholly biblically based.

Nobody gives tithes and offerings nowadays....it is just what our 'giving' has been called, and erroneously linked to the 'tithes and offerings' mentioned in the Bible.

The principle of 'tithes and offerings' is really what is established in the way we give today...because our workers need a wage, and there are always costs involved....on top of that there are various missions and projects into which we can have the blessing of giving and supporting....which I think was Fez's point.

The area that brings the most controversy is the prevalent teaching that stipulates you will have financial gain in the here and now if you sow into the Kingdom of G-d...it is usually endorsed by those that get up and testify to how much they got back having sown into the KoG...it is faith based and meant to be a spiritual principle...which is where I have to admit, the light has not yet dawned on me, as I thought we laid up treasures for ourselves in Heaven, and I know far more people who have given faithfully and gotten into debt and financial difficulties than the odd few who would appear to have been financially rewarded...

I don't believe in a poverty mentality of succumbing to a poverty spirit, and yes I believe G-d wants to bless us in every area of our lives including financially...but I have always believed this is through Kingdom principles and being disciplined and responsible with finance, not through what appears to me a 'magical formula' that is overly promoted in an attempt to garner money for various ministries, in the guise of blessing each individual who gives gives and gives.

I am not cynical, I just don't see it in Scripture, but I am very open to being shown where I am a bit blind on this issue.

[Gerioke]

I would think an offering from the heart is worth more to the Lord than a tithe from the law.

[OneLight]

I would think an offering from the heart is worth more to the Lord than a tithe from the law.

It is!

Mark 12:41-44

The Widow

[anitarose]

Botz---I tithe 10% of my income when I have it. It's not Law---it was established BEFORE the "law" was given, by Abraham. Even before that, in the Garden.

At any rate, even Y'shua tithed, don't you think? Why is it most modern-day "Christians" (I use the term loosely) forget about the basic things Y'shua said...in Mattityahu (Matthew) 5: 17-20, Y'shua said this:

"Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah (teachings and instructions) or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to complete them. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away (Revelation 22), not so much as a yod (dot) or a stroke (tittle) will pass from the Torah---not until everything (I think he means EVERYTHING here) that must happen has happened. So, whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. for I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim (Pharisees), you will certainly NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."---Complete Jewish Bible

Got news for y'all----I ain't taking any chances. I'm following the Torah. After reading this in not just this translation but the Amplified as well, Y'shua gets down and dirty with people who take His word and don't follow it to the letter. If you don't believe the Bible literally, you don't believe at all. He said, "Follow My Commandments". Uh, I think that means the teachings and instructions that were outlined in the Torah....and I'd rather follow them here and then have Him tell me I'm wrong, than to not follow them and be told I can't enter into the Kingdom. So I'm tithing. I'm giving offerings. I'm eating only clean meats. I'm keeping the Jewish feasts, cause we'll be doing them in the Kingdom anyway, might as well get used to doing them here. And you know what? Since I made that decision, I'm actually happier than I've been in a very long time. I'm actually at peace, because I believe I'm following the will of YHWH. Finally, after all these years.

No I didn't start this thread to torpedo things. No I didn't start it to cause controversy. I've been taught for YEARS that Christians have to tithe. I've been a Christian for coming up on 40 years and all that time, I've been taught to tithe 10%. Not because of prosperity teachers, but because GOD said so. He said it in HIS WORD, and I'm doing it, no questions asked.

I still want to hear what you all have to say. I've given my opinion.

a.

[alex_31]

Since God has graciously given so much to us, the least we can to is give back to Him and be thankful. The Apostle Paul said that we brought nothing into this world and of a truth can take nothing out.

[Fez]

Actually what we are giving belongs to Him in the first place.

Our money, our wife, our husband, our children, our home, our car, the ground we walk on, and the air we breathe, all are His.

Even ourself.

We are His.

We can't really give Him something that is already His. There is nothing He wants from us except us.

I tithe because it honors Him, and my church needs it to survive and do His work.

[Botz]

Botz---I tithe 10% of my income when I have it. It's not Law---it was established BEFORE the "law" was given, by Abraham. Even before that, in the Garden.

At any rate, even Y'shua tithed, don't you think? Why is it most modern-day "Christians" (I use the term loosely) forget about the basic things Y'shua said...in Mattityahu (Matthew) 5: 17-20, Y'shua said this:

"Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah (teachings and instructions) or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to complete them. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away (Revelation 22), not so much as a yod (dot) or a stroke (tittle) will pass from the Torah---not until everything (I think he means EVERYTHING here) that must happen has happened. So, whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. for I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim (Pharisees), you will certainly NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."---Complete Jewish Bible

Got news for y'all----I ain't taking any chances. I'm following the Torah. After reading this in not just this translation but the Amplified as well, Y'shua gets down and dirty with people who take His word and don't follow it to the letter. If you don't believe the Bible literally, you don't believe at all. He said, "Follow My Commandments". Uh, I think that means the teachings and instructions that were outlined in the Torah....and I'd rather follow them here and then have Him tell me I'm wrong, than to not follow them and be told I can't enter into the Kingdom. So I'm tithing. I'm giving offerings. I'm eating only clean meats. I'm keeping the Jewish feasts, cause we'll be doing them in the Kingdom anyway, might as well get used to doing them here. And you know what? Since I made that decision, I'm actually happier than I've been in a very long time. I'm actually at peace, because I believe I'm following the will of YHWH. Finally, after all these years.

No I didn't start this thread to torpedo things. No I didn't start it to cause controversy. I've been taught for YEARS that Christians have to tithe. I've been a Christian for coming up on 40 years and all that time, I've been taught to tithe 10%. Not because of prosperity teachers, but because GOD said so. He said it in HIS WORD, and I'm doing it, no questions asked.

I still want to hear what you all have to say. I've given my opinion.

a.

Hello anitarose, I'm not sure if you understood the gist of my post.

What I was trying to establish, is that so much teaching on tithes and offerings is lifted out of context and applied to the body of Messiah, when in actual fact the context of Tithes and Offerings that is taught, has everything to do with the Temple...try finding just one example of New Covenant Believers teaching about Tithes and Offerings and linking it to the up-keep and function of the Temple.

What I did say, was that the reality is that we utilise the principle that we find illustrated through Tithes and Offerings, and that includes as you rightly point out, the tenth that Abram offered to Melchizedek, and the truth is we are encouraged to develop a generous spirit 'a good eye' and to be involved in the ministry of the body, which means giving, time, talents, gifts and money...I have absolutely no problem with any of that....it is done because the Torah of G-d is written on our hearts in the newness of the Spirit.

What I also sought to establish, was the difficulty I had in some of the methods used to get people to part with their money....virtually guaranteeing them a return on their 'investment' in the 'here and now'....when as far as I understood Scripture, our giving and the attitude of our giving, was linked to reward in Heaven...rather than repeating passages like Malachi 3:8-11 and trying to make them fit prosperity theology.

Don't ever worry about stirring up a bit of controversy....we need it to keep each other sharp....but obviously controversy for controversy's sake is an exercise in futility.

I don't think we are to follow Torah in quite the way you set it out, which seems trying to be obedient to the Law just in case you get something wrong and are kicked out of the Kingdom of G-d....quote "and I'd rather follow them here and then have Him tell me I'm wrong, than to not follow them and be told I can't enter into the Kingdom."

In the passage you quote from Matthew 5:17-20 I believe Yeshua is establishing the righteousness of the Law, and ultimately His part in fulfilling it and being the fulfilment of it...what He is not saying is that the Law is permanently binding on people when they have come to see His part in it....and He is at pains to point out that those that obey and teach every part of Torah will be called great in Heaven, not because they keep everything....but because they recognise that the whole of Torah leads inevitably to Yeshua. You can also link this passage to Matt 11

11

[Guest shiloh357]

At any rate, even Y'shua tithed, don't you think? Why is it most modern-day "Christians" (I use the term loosely) forget about the basic things Y'shua said...in Mattityahu (Matthew) 5: 17-20, Y'shua said this:

"Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah (teachings and instructions) or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to complete them. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away (Revelation 22), not so much as a yod (dot) or a stroke (tittle) will pass from the Torah---not until everything (I think he means EVERYTHING here) that must happen has happened. So, whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. for I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim (Pharisees), you will certainly NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."---Complete Jewish Bible

Jesus point was that He is the fullest expression of the Torah. He is the Torah personified. To abolish/fulfill are idomiatic expressions from that time period that refer to either properly or improperly teaching or interpretting Torah.

Got news for y'all----I ain't taking any chances. I'm following the Torah.

Got news for you: If you are only giving 10% and you are giving it to the church/Messianic congregation, you are NOT following Torah. There are three tithes that an Israelite was required to give according to Torah, and the ONLY place as the designated recepticle for the tithe according to Torah was the Temple. So if you are not giving 23% of your income and you are not giving it to the Temple in Jerusalem, you are not following Torah.

After reading this in not just this translation but the Amplified as well, Y'shua gets down and dirty with people who take His word and don't follow it to the letter. If you don't believe the Bible literally, you don't believe at all.

There is a difference between taking Scripture literally and simply applying a wooden, face-value interpretation.

If 10% is what you feel led to give, that is a good bench mark, but that is between you and the Lord. The OT tithe is not given to the believers and it would be wrong to do so from a Toraic perspective.

[Fez]

The OT tithe is not given to the believers and it would be wrong to do so from a Toraic perspective.

Ok I get that shiloh, but what are you actually saying about modern day tithing now? It has no basis in scripture in that it should be given to God? How? We can't sacrifice, nor should we, so what to do?

I will say it again, I tithe because I believe it honors God because all I own is His anyway, and my church needs it to further His work.

[enoob57]

Christ said He came to lead into all righteousness... He has told us everything He plans to do...

That which He keeps eternally has value...

That which He causes to pass away, after purpose for it has ended, no value...

So God has moved the tithe to being and the being to spiritual commitment in such a way that all of what we are, given by God, whether corporeal which passes away or Spiritual assent to the corporeal as to purposed in God by obedience that passes not away. We must allow all to pass through us to others for this is the faith of this teaching of Paul Phil. 1, 2 and 4. If we are faithful to the giving of the new covenant we will empty ourselves so that the supply of God to others may flow wherein we grow not by that which we understand but by Love which never passes away 1Cor 13... Love Steven