Lucifer?

[goldust59]

I, like many of you, have accepted things handed down "by the traditions of our fathers" without question. If at any time a nagging question arose within myself I would simply brush it aside with the thought who am I to question such things? But, lo and behold, the same questions would arise again and again?

Questions such as:

"Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

"Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

"Why would I suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if I cannot verify that through Scripture?"

"Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do I see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

"I wonder why I see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

Many years ago (when I Lord) a dear brother told me something I had been told(taught for years) was young in thewas a false teaching. I was greatly offended & with "righteous" (in my eyes) indignation I set about to prove him wrong. I went before God & prayed for wisdom to help my brother see his error. Well, what an eye opening experience I had with the Father! After that I questioned everything men had taught me concerning His word. WOW! I learned so much & though I listen to other people when they teach, I never take it as truth til He brings peace about it to me. Saying that, let me say that yes some of these questions did & still cause me to ponder them. I do not believe that Lucifer was satan. I do believe satan was created as is & for God's purpose. Bless you sdtlk and know that He reveals meaning as we are able to handle it. ....line upon line, precept upon precept

"I see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you are am I the only one?

Edited January 10, 2011 by goldust59

[goldust59]

Hey Dont know what happened but my reply ended up in sdtlk part of his questions. Sorry sdtlk, still learning how to use the site!

[goldust59]

okay,let's try this again. Somehow my post wound up in sdktlk post when I wrote reply. Again, sorry sdtlk. tried to edit & just scrambled up my reply some. My post was: Many years ago(when I was young in the Lord) a dear brother told me something I had been told(taught for years) was a false teaching. I was greatly offended & with "righteous" indignation I set about to prove him wrong. I went before God & prayed for wisdom to help my brother see his error. Well,what an eye opening experience I had with the Father! After that I questioned everything men had taught me concerning His word. WOW! I learned so much & though I listen to other people teach I never take it as truth til He brings peace about it to me. Saying that, let me say that yes some of your questions did & still do cause me to ponder them. I do not believe Lucifer was satan. I do believe he was created as is & for Gods purpose. Bless you sdktlk and know that He reveals meaning as we are able to handle it. ...line upon line, precept upon precept

[sdktlk]

Hey Dont know what happened but my reply ended up in sdtlk part of his questions. Sorry sdtlk, still learning how to use the site!

Hello Golddust, I have the same problems posting myself as I am unlearned in the complexities of this type of thing. One further Scripture that should give us pause is Genesis 3:1. "Now THE SERPENT was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God HAD MADE." Does it not say here that the LORD God made the serpent or have I missed something again?

Edited January 10, 2011 by sdktlk

[goldust59]

Dont think you missed anything there either. And we see he was in the garden as a serpent. The annointed cherub was in the garden then too. They cant be and are not the same any way I look at it.

[OneLight]

Dont think you missed anything there either. And we see he was in the garden as a serpent. The annointed cherub was in the garden then too. They cant be and are not the same any way I look at it.

Strong's H3742

כְּרוּב

kĕruwb

1) cherub, cherubim (pl)

.......a) an angelic being

..............1) as guardians of Eden

..............2) as flanking God's throne

..............3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant

..............4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)

Adam is was not ever an angelic being, but a human as found in Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:15-25. Notice Adam saying "This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh". Anglic beings are not made from the dust of the ground nor were they created with flesh like man.

[sdktlk]

This thread was on Lucifer and seems to have gone off into the study of cherubim, so maybe we can refresh ourselves. I, like many of you, have accepted things handed down "by the traditions of our fathers" without question. If at any time a nagging question arose within myself I would simply brush it aside with the thought who am I to question such things? But, lo and behold, the same questions would arise again and again?

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

[Believer112]

This thread was on Lucifer and seems to have gone off into the study of cherubim, so maybe we can refresh ourselves. I, like many of you, have accepted things handed down "by the traditions of our fathers" without question. If at any time a nagging question arose within myself I would simply brush it aside with the thought who am I to question such things? But, lo and behold, the same questions would arise again and again?

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

The king of Tyre a reference to Lucifer. Lucifer was God's anointed cherub.

Ezekiel 28:11-14

¹¹ Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, ¹² "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD:

" You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. ¹³ You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. ¹⁴ " You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

The fall of Lucifer because of his pride. Then he became satan.

Isaiah 14:12-15 [12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. [15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan (noun)

1) adversary, one who withstands

a) adversary (in general - personal or national)

2) superhuman adversary

a) Satan (as noun pr)

The devil. (adjective)

1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely

a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,

2) metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

I believe the fall happened in the beginning (of man). The only time we see inequity in Lucifer is when he deceived Eve and became satan.

Ezekiel 28 ¹³ you were in Eden, the garden of God

Ezekiel 28:15

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you

^{JJ John 8: 44} You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (murdered mankind God's creation)

Man was placed ahead of the angels. Lucifers pride caused inequity. The devil received authority of the world from man when we yielded to him. In essence man created satan. That's how I see it.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Believer112

[Guest man]

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

Why in the world would we waste our time on things which we so evidently have no real possibility of answering?

[other one]

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

Well, none of these questions plague me.