pot stirring 101

[OneLight]

When I consider how man tries to change to words of God so that people can understand His words better, I wonder how much faith they have in the Holy Spirit? I am reminded of John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Is man now trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit?

Some will argue that the Holy Spirit can teach through any version of a bible and if I can't see that, then I limit the Holy Spirit. Others will say that our bible today is not the real bible, but only a translation, which I do so agree with. Yet, look at the difference between a true translation and a book written to ease the "hardship" on reading a translation from the original. Examine the words and how they change the meaning.

Remember that old game all kids played in school where one statement was whispered into the ear of the first child, then each child would them whisper it into the ear of the next until the last child was reached? When the last child said what they had heard, the statement was always changed from the original, sometimes a lot, other times only enough to give a different meaning. So is the Message. One man has taken upon himself the task of rewording Gods words to us so that people will understand Him better. The Message is all about change. It incorporates the world into His word, adding new age thoughts, paganism etc. We surely don't need that garbage, but the Holy Spirit to teach us.

Each time I see someone using a version of the bible, and the Message is called a bible, I am brought back to Galatians 1:6-9: I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Notice that scripture tells us " to a different gospel, which is not another". What is meant by this? The gospel that is preached is about God, but places God in a new or different light. Beware of what you allow yourself to be taught. If you have trouble understanding the bible you have, don't seek out an easier bible to read, dig deeper into the one you have. Use the tools that are available to you to use. Understand the culture of when scripture was written; read the Hebrew and Greek Interlinear bibles that place the original next to the bible. Seek the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

In this day and age, people want what they want and they want it now, without having to do anything for it. People have become lazy in our efforts to draw closer to God and to truly understand Him. Some place their faith in a book that does not ever resemble scripture because to understand God through His words takes time and effort, something they are not willing to do. Who is this God they have come to know? The God of green hope. Where in the world did they come up with this?

Beware of the Message.

[enoob57]

The Father of Christ being The very Person Hallowed...

The value of this understanding is congruent to depth you have gained in Him by sanctification-> emptying the self to live in the newness of light (Hallowed be Thy Name)!

One need not worry this deepening of Spirit becomes the Hallowed ground where no shoe may be worn and without question we are adorned in the Blood of Covering so that Hallowed be Your Name is but the echo of The Son Who first taught us to pray in His disciples penned remmeberance... How do you think Christ sounded when He

spoke these Words to His Father?

Here is where we begin in the understanding:

John 7:46

46 The officers answered, "No man ever spoke like this Man!"

NKJV

He was able to speak as no other for the Power of His Person being without sin and the clarity of thought and the reality of truth against the backdrop of darkness scream of intensities in His delivery of Words that would dumbfound the listener... add to the fact it was His beloved disciples asking Him to teach them to talk to The Father... I believe only the fully committed to life in Him -no matter what- can hear "Our Father which art in Heaven Hallowed be Thy Name" and rends you into broken and contriteness that remains until He alone removes it in the beholding of His Face(Christ's) an in the look of His Eye! I sense that which cannot be known becomes the waiting upon Him in the Hallowing of His Name for His Kingdom to come and His Will be done by obedience to what He has taught us in his Son...

So no- (reveal Who You are) is so far down from this formed by His Lips the two shall never meet in sameness of being! And what good is translation if it does not echo the original intent of communication? For He has expressly stated His purpose was to bring us into truth Jn 18:37 and that to seal us in bond with the Father, Himself and Holy Spirit John 17 Love Steven

[rollinTHUNDER]

Ok someone mentioned a bible version and the way the Lords prayer is in it.

Our Father in heaven,

Reveal who you are.

Set the world right;

Do what's best— as above, so below.

Keep us alive with three square meals.

Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.

Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.

You're in charge!

You can do anything you want!

You're ablaze in beauty!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

What do you think of this translation? I will post which version it is later on in this thread, along with what I think of this.

Woe, woe, woe!

That reminds me of the way the message is written.

One night, after finally taking a look at the message on the computer, and noticing how ridiculous it is, I called my wife into the room and told her to bring her Bible. She had a parrallel study Bible, which has four different versions in it.

I said, "You're not going to believe this. This is so ridiculous." I told her to read a passage from her Bible, any version she liked, and then I would read the same passage from the Message. She read hers, then I started reading and we both started cracking up. Then she found another passage and tried it again. Then I read mine and we were laughing so hard, we both had tears rolling. I think we must have done this for about a half hour or so, and I had to stop because I could no longer see through my tears. That was hillarious stuff.

I would never buy the Message, but if you ever get bored one night, and you think a good laugh might be in order. I can guarantee you will be laughing so hard that you will not be able to contain yourself. Oh, and make sure you read it out loud to each other.

But I have to tell you, this is not God's Word in any way, shape or form, not in my opinion. It is only good for a great laugh.

[Fez]

While I did have an issue at first, I started to say the Prayer, as I know it and compared. Really, its not as bad as its being made out. But I will ask what issues do you have with it when compared to how you know it.

Ok, do you think that give us our daily bread alludes only to food?

Mat 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body."

Mar 14:22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body."

Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

for a start.....

[Fez]

Reveal who you are.

Luk 11:2 And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come.

Its worship, not a request....

and so on.....

[mizzdy]

Reveal who you are.

Luk 11:2 And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come.

Its worship, not a request....

and so on.....

9 You, therefore, pray like this: `Our Father in heaven! May your Name be kept holy. 10 May your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as in heaven. 11 Give us the food we need today. 12 Forgive us what we have done wrong, as we too have forgiven those who have wronged us. 13 And do not lead us into hard testing, but keep us safe from the Evil One. For kingship, power and glory are yours forever. Amen.' 14 For if you forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will not forgive yours.

This is from the CJB which I really like. Give us our daily bread is about giving us food, the word bread here is just that a loaf or bread, though I completely understand what your saying! We are asking that His will be done in this world as it is done in the heavens, not gonna happen till He comes back again and sets up His instructions over the earth and His people once again.

I'm not a fan of the Message but I suppose as paraphrases go its ok. Even though I really like the CJB I wouldn't just use it as my only source of study and theres way too many who use the Message as their only scriptures.

[ayin jade]

While I did have an issue at first, I started to say the Prayer, as I know it and compared. Really, its not as bad as its being made out. But I will ask what issues do you have with it when compared to how you know it.

"Our Father in heaven,

Reveal who you are."

While the significance of "name" is lost to our culture, this way of expressing "Hallowed [Holy] by Your Name" misses the boat entirely. While there is nothing wrong with asking the Father to reveal Himself, this is changing the prayer. It lacks the sense of honoring Him.

"Set the world right;"

Do what's best— as above, so below."

If one believes the only point to the Kingdom of God coming is to set the world right, one does not understand what the Kingdom of God is about. While the world will be made right in His Kingdom, there is so much more depth to it than this.

"Do what's best— as above, so below."

We need to ask God to do what's best? Does anyone else think this is whacked?

But seriously, this expression lacks the component of surrender acknowledged by the one praying that "Your will be done" has.

"Keep us alive with three square meals."

This is so wrong, I don't know where to begin.

Anyway, you get the idea, I hope.

Exactly Neb!

[ayin jade]

Some of you guessed right. It is from the Message "bible"

Lets compare to the kjv. Lets look at how the wording in the Message changes the meaning of what Gods word states. (KJV will be in blue, the message in brown.)

Our Father in heaven,

Our Father which art in heaven

Ok no change there.

Reveal who you are.

Hallowed be thy name

Big problem. Reveal who you are is a demand on God, and places the focus on man. Hallowed be thy name is focused on God, praising and worshiping Him.

The word in hebrew for hallowed means to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

How is "Reveal who you are" an act of veneration?

Set the world right;

Thy kingdom come

A worldly focus here. Setting the world right is not His ultimate goal. After all, the world is ultimately destroyed and a new one created. Again, a worldly man focus rather than a focus on the Lord.

Do what's best— as above, so below.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

This one seems ok at first glance, but again, do whats best seems a bit bossy whereas thy will be done is a submission to the will of God.

Keep us alive with three square meals.

Give us this day our daily bread

I like what other one had to say about this, Jesus being the Bread of life. Otherwise I just dont care for the wording on this line.

Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Still a bit man focused. Why not say "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others."

Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Awkward wording. It seems to almost diminish the enormity of evil.

You're in charge!

You can do anything you want!

You're ablaze in beauty!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

No, just ugly wording. Diminishes His holiness. Comes across as a motivational speech rather than submission.

Overall just the second line alone, "reveal who you are" ruins the entire prayer for me.

[other one]

Some of you guessed right. It is from the Message "bible"

Lets compare to the kjv. Lets look at how the wording in the Message changes the meaning of what Gods word states. (KJV will be in blue, the message in brown.)

Our Father in heaven,

Our Father which art in heaven

Ok no change there.

Reveal who you are.

Hallowed be thy name

Big problem. Reveal who you are is a demand on God, and places the focus on man. Hallowed be thy name is focused on God, praising and worshiping Him.

The word in hebrew for hallowed means to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

How is "Reveal who you are" an act of veneration?

Set the world right;

Thy kingdom come

A worldly focus here. Setting the world right is not His ultimate goal. After all, the world is ultimately destroyed and a new one created. Again, a worldly man focus rather than a focus on the Lord.

Do what's best— as above, so below.

Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

This one seems ok at first glance, but again, do whats best seems a bit bossy whereas thy will be done is a submission to the will of God.

Keep us alive with three square meals.

Give us this day our daily bread

I like what other one had to say about this, Jesus being the Bread of life. Otherwise I just dont care for the wording on this line.

Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Still a bit man focused. Why not say "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others."

Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

Awkward wording. It seems to almost diminish the enormity of evil.

You're in charge!

You can do anything you want!

You're ablaze in beauty!

Yes. Yes. Yes.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

No, just ugly wording. Diminishes His holiness. Comes across as a motivational speech rather than submission.

Overall just the second line alone, "reveal who you are" ruins the entire prayer for me.

Well, considering who God is....... I don't know...... pondering.....

I don't mean to be promoting this, for as I said in my first post, it doesn't reslly resemble the Lords Prayer to me... but I wouldn't really accept anything past the non enhanced NASB for translations or paraphrases...... but a new reader and a person just learning who is not really going to read the others..... well, I'm just not ready to burn them all just yet.

[OneLight]

Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Still a bit man focused. Why not say "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others."

I would also point out that scripture tells us that we are to be forgiven to the degree that we forgive. The message doesn't even elude to this teaching.