The Pre-Trib Rapture and Acts 15:13-18

[Littlelambseativy]

The Pre-Trib Rapture In Acts 15:13-18

A number of people have wondered about using Acts 15:13-18 to support my position that the rapture of the church has to precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week. Most of their comments have contained a request for a clearer understanding of why I do this, so here it is.

It was almost 20 years after the cross when the Council of Jerusalem took place. James, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, some believers from the Pharisees, and others had gathered to settle the issue of whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism before they could become Christians. But another question, unspoken, was also on their minds and as Jews it was even more important to them. “If not, what's to become of Israel?”

The Pharisees argued that the path to Christianity for Jews and Gentiles alike was through Judaism. To them this meant keeping the Law, being circumcised and following the traditions in addition to recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Then Peter, Barnabas, and Paul presented a different opinion, based on seeing firsthand the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles. They said because of that, Gentiles should be allowed to come directly into the Church. Now let's turn to Acts 15:13 for the outcome of the meeting.

When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon (Peter) has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. (Acts 15:13-14)

The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

'After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages. (Acts 15:15-18)

What Does That Mean?

In simple language James, the brother of Jesus and Head of the Church in Jerusalem, said Israel was being set aside while the Lord took a people from among the Gentiles for Himself (or for His name's sake.) Remember, 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 Week prophecy had transpired. It was becoming obvious that with the Lord's crucifixion the clock had stopped short of the promised 70 weeks. Although Jerusalem and the Temple had not yet been destroyed the Lord's prophecy that they soon would be was a matter of public record.

Already there were signs that all was not well where the Temple was concerned. The Jewish Talmud records four ominous indications that trouble was coming. (Talmud Mas. Yoma 39b)

1. In the Yom Kippur service two goats were brought to the High Priest, one was to be “for the Lord” (the peace offering) and the other was “for Azazel”, also known as the scape goat. They were chosen by lot and the lot for the Lord's goat had always come up in the High priest's right hand. After the cross it never did again.

2. A scarlet cord tied the scape goat to the door of the temple during the service. After the High priest symbolically placed the sins of Israel on the head of the scape goat, he cut the cord leaving some on the goat's horn and the rest on the Temple door. Then it was led to its death in the wilderness. Previously, the portion on the Temple door had always turned white when the scape goat died. This was seen as a fulfillment of Isaiah 1:18, “Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be white as snow” indicating Israel's sins had been forgiven. After the cross the cord never turned white again.

3. The westernmost light on the seven branched Menorah would no longer stay lit. The number seven signifies divine completion, while man's number is 6. The seven lights meant that together with God, Israel was complete and brought light to the world. But now, with only 6 lights that would burn, it was obvious God had left them.

4. The main Temple doors began opening by themselves. The priests saw this as a warning that Zechariah 11:1 would soon be fufilled. “Open your doors, O Lebanon, so that fires may devour your cedars.”

During the conquest of Jerusalem the Romans set fire to the Temple. It's roof was made of cedar from Lebanon covered in thin sheets of gold. The intense heat from the fire melted the gold and it ran down the walls into the cracks between the stones. After the fire had burned out, the Roman soldiers dismantled the Temple stone by stone to get the gold. When they were finished the Lord's Palm Sunday prophecy had been dramatically fulfilled. “They will not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you” (Luke 19:44) .

When James referred to Peter speaking of the Lord taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself in Acts 15:13-14 the Greek words he used for “taking from” were lambano ek. Together they mean to take (something) with the hand in order to carry (it) away from a certain time and place. In this case the something is the Church (the people for Himself), and the certain time and place would be carried away from is the restoration of Israel on Earth for the final seven years of their covenant with God. We know this because the first two words of Acts 15:15, which talks about rebuilding the Temple, are “after this”, after the Church is gone. Whether he knew it or not, James was saying the rapture of the Church would precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week.

Then What Happens?

In Acts 15:15-18 James quoted from Amos 9:11-12 to confirm his understanding that after the Lord has taken the Church He'll cause the Temple to be rebuilt. Like we saw above they knew it would soon be destroyed, but James used a prophecy from Amos that was already 800 years old to show the Temple will be rebuilt when the Lord has finished with the Church. After that the gentiles who will have missed the rapture will have one final chance to be saved as well. This settled the issue of Israel's future.

From Daniel 9:24-27 we know that rebuilding their Temple will be a sign that Israel has returned to its covenant relationship with God and the remaining 70^th week of Daniel's prophecy is under way. The only reason for a Temple to exist is to allow Israel to conduct Old Covenant rituals and sacrifices. Daniel 9:27 says the anti-Christ will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the 70^th week. This tells us a Temple will have been erected and sacrifices offered again beginning sometime earlier.

So here's the scope of the passage. Following the cross, Israel was temporarily set aside while God began His redemptive work among the Gentiles. His first work was to build His Church, against which the gates of Hell will not prevail (Matt.18:18).

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel was to be hardened in part during this time. Paul was talking about Israel's heart which would be hardened against understanding. Remember in Luke 19:41-45 Jesus said the obvious fact that their long awaited Messiah had visited them would hence forth be hidden from their eyes. Paul said this would be the case all through the time the Lord was focused on the Church. The fact that some say more Jews have come to Jesus in the past 19 years than in the previous 1900 years may be an indication that the time of hardening is coming to an end.

In Paul's day, the Greek word translated full number (fullness) was often used in a nautical sense. It referred to the number of crew members necessary for a commercial ship to set sail. Because of the dangers involved in being caught short handed during a storm at sea, ships could not leave port until they had the full number of sailors aboard. Also the word translated "come in" meant to arrive at a scheduled destination. (We've all heard the phrase “waiting for my ship to come in”.) In Romans 11:25 Paul used these metaphors to describe the Church leaving Earth and arriving at our Heavenly destination before Israel's heart is softened.

When the full number of the Gentiles has been reached we'll be whisked away to our Father's house (John 14:2-3) while He turns His attention back to Israel. At that time, the remaining seven years of Daniel's prophecy will play out. Through the most devastating judgments ever visited upon Earth the nations among which Israel has been scattered will be completely destroyed, Israel will be purified to prepare for the coming Kingdom Age, and the remnant of the Gentiles will get their final chance at salvation.

But Wait, There's More

If you stop to think about, it these few verses in Acts 15 answer several important theological questions. They show the New covenant did not replace the Old Covenant, but merely interrupted it. They prove God didn't intend for the Church to replace Israel in His plan forever, He just set Israel aside temporarily so the door of salvation could be opened to the Gentiles. In Isaiah 49:6 the Father said to the Son;

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

With the added insight from Romans 11:25 we can also confirm that Israel and the Church are like oil and water in that they don't mix. For one to be here the other has to be gone. The two systems are theologically incompatible. You can't have a system of faith evidenced by obedience to the Law complete with daily animal sacrifices functioning beside a system of grace through faith alone with no other requirement than to believe in the one He has sent (John 6:29).

Therefore the Church is not the next dot on a straight line from Creation to Eternity. It's a giant right hand turn that takes believers to a unique and exclusive destiny that no other believers will share, and allows the Lord to fulfill His promises to Israel at the same time.

We tend to think the only reason for the rapture is to get the Church out of the way of the End Times judgments. But this shows us there's another reason why the Church can't be on Earth during any of Daniel's 70th Week. We have to leave so Israel can come back to God. From the looks of it, our departure is coming soon. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 10-08-11

[PeterH]

just to give credit where credit is due that article was written by Jack Kelley – www.gracethrufaith.com

[nChrist]

just to give credit where credit is due that article was written by Jack Kelley – www.gracethrufaith.com

"by Jack Kelley" is also in the title of the thread, so credit was given.

[PeterH]

just to give credit where credit is due that article was written by Jack Kelley – www.gracethrufaith.com

"by Jack Kelley" is also in the title of the thread, so credit was given.

ah didn't see that.

[truth7t7]

The Pre-Trib Rapture In Acts 15:13-18

A number of people have wondered about using Acts 15:13-18 to support my position that the rapture of the church has to precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week. Most of their comments have contained a request for a clearer understanding of why I do this, so here it is.

It was almost 20 years after the cross when the Council of Jerusalem took place. James, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, some believers from the Pharisees, and others had gathered to settle the issue of whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism before they could become Christians. But another question, unspoken, was also on their minds and as Jews it was even more important to them. “If not, what's to become of Israel?”

The Pharisees argued that the path to Christianity for Jews and Gentiles alike was through Judaism. To them this meant keeping the Law, being circumcised and following the traditions in addition to recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Then Peter, Barnabas, and Paul presented a different opinion, based on seeing firsthand the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles. They said because of that, Gentiles should be allowed to come directly into the Church. Now let's turn to Acts 15:13 for the outcome of the meeting.

When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon (Peter) has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. (Acts 15:13-14)

The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

'After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages. (Acts 15:15-18)

What Does That Mean?

In simple language James, the brother of Jesus and Head of the Church in Jerusalem, said Israel was being set aside while the Lord took a people from among the Gentiles for Himself (or for His name's sake.) Remember, 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 Week prophecy had transpired. It was becoming obvious that with the Lord's crucifixion the clock had stopped short of the promised 70 weeks. Although Jerusalem and the Temple had not yet been destroyed the Lord's prophecy that they soon would be was a matter of public record.

Already there were signs that all was not well where the Temple was concerned. The Jewish Talmud records four ominous indications that trouble was coming. (Talmud Mas. Yoma 39b)

1. In the Yom Kippur service two goats were brought to the High Priest, one was to be “for the Lord” (the peace offering) and the other was “for Azazel”, also known as the scape goat. They were chosen by lot and the lot for the Lord's goat had always come up in the High priest's right hand. After the cross it never did again.

2. A scarlet cord tied the scape goat to the door of the temple during the service. After the High priest symbolically placed the sins of Israel on the head of the scape goat, he cut the cord leaving some on the goat's horn and the rest on the Temple door. Then it was led to its death in the wilderness. Previously, the portion on the Temple door had always turned white when the scape goat died. This was seen as a fulfillment of Isaiah 1:18, “Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be white as snow” indicating Israel's sins had been forgiven. After the cross the cord never turned white again.

3. The westernmost light on the seven branched Menorah would no longer stay lit. The number seven signifies divine completion, while man's number is 6. The seven lights meant that together with God, Israel was complete and brought light to the world. But now, with only 6 lights that would burn, it was obvious God had left them.

4. The main Temple doors began opening by themselves. The priests saw this as a warning that Zechariah 11:1 would soon be fufilled. “Open your doors, O Lebanon, so that fires may devour your cedars.”

During the conquest of Jerusalem the Romans set fire to the Temple. It's roof was made of cedar from Lebanon covered in thin sheets of gold. The intense heat from the fire melted the gold and it ran down the walls into the cracks between the stones. After the fire had burned out, the Roman soldiers dismantled the Temple stone by stone to get the gold. When they were finished the Lord's Palm Sunday prophecy had been dramatically fulfilled. “They will not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you” (Luke 19:44) .

When James referred to Peter speaking of the Lord taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself in Acts 15:13-14 the Greek words he used for “taking from” were lambano ek. Together they mean to take (something) with the hand in order to carry (it) away from a certain time and place. In this case the something is the Church (the people for Himself), and the certain time and place would be carried away from is the restoration of Israel on Earth for the final seven years of their covenant with God. We know this because the first two words of Acts 15:15, which talks about rebuilding the Temple, are “after this”, after the Church is gone. Whether he knew it or not, James was saying the rapture of the Church would precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week.

Then What Happens?

In Acts 15:15-18 James quoted from Amos 9:11-12 to confirm his understanding that after the Lord has taken the Church He'll cause the Temple to be rebuilt. Like we saw above they knew it would soon be destroyed, but James used a prophecy from Amos that was already 800 years old to show the Temple will be rebuilt when the Lord has finished with the Church. After that the gentiles who will have missed the rapture will have one final chance to be saved as well. This settled the issue of Israel's future.

From Daniel 9:24-27 we know that rebuilding their Temple will be a sign that Israel has returned to its covenant relationship with God and the remaining 70^th week of Daniel's prophecy is under way. The only reason for a Temple to exist is to allow Israel to conduct Old Covenant rituals and sacrifices. Daniel 9:27 says the anti-Christ will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the 70^th week. This tells us a Temple will have been erected and sacrifices offered again beginning sometime earlier.

So here's the scope of the passage. Following the cross, Israel was temporarily set aside while God began His redemptive work among the Gentiles. His first work was to build His Church, against which the gates of Hell will not prevail (Matt.18:18).

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel was to be hardened in part during this time. Paul was talking about Israel's heart which would be hardened against understanding. Remember in Luke 19:41-45 Jesus said the obvious fact that their long awaited Messiah had visited them would hence forth be hidden from their eyes. Paul said this would be the case all through the time the Lord was focused on the Church. The fact that some say more Jews have come to Jesus in the past 19 years than in the previous 1900 years may be an indication that the time of hardening is coming to an end.

In Paul's day, the Greek word translated full number (fullness) was often used in a nautical sense. It referred to the number of crew members necessary for a commercial ship to set sail. Because of the dangers involved in being caught short handed during a storm at sea, ships could not leave port until they had the full number of sailors aboard. Also the word translated "come in" meant to arrive at a scheduled destination. (We've all heard the phrase “waiting for my ship to come in”.) In Romans 11:25 Paul used these metaphors to describe the Church leaving Earth and arriving at our Heavenly destination before Israel's heart is softened.

When the full number of the Gentiles has been reached we'll be whisked away to our Father's house (John 14:2-3) while He turns His attention back to Israel. At that time, the remaining seven years of Daniel's prophecy will play out. Through the most devastating judgments ever visited upon Earth the nations among which Israel has been scattered will be completely destroyed, Israel will be purified to prepare for the coming Kingdom Age, and the remnant of the Gentiles will get their final chance at salvation.

But Wait, There's More

If you stop to think about, it these few verses in Acts 15 answer several important theological questions. They show the New covenant did not replace the Old Covenant, but merely interrupted it. They prove God didn't intend for the Church to replace Israel in His plan forever, He just set Israel aside temporarily so the door of salvation could be opened to the Gentiles. In Isaiah 49:6 the Father said to the Son;

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

With the added insight from Romans 11:25 we can also confirm that Israel and the Church are like oil and water in that they don't mix. For one to be here the other has to be gone. The two systems are theologically incompatible. You can't have a system of faith evidenced by obedience to the Law complete with daily animal sacrifices functioning beside a system of grace through faith alone with no other requirement than to believe in the one He has sent (John 6:29).

Therefore the Church is not the next dot on a straight line from Creation to Eternity. It's a giant right hand turn that takes believers to a unique and exclusive destiny that no other believers will share, and allows the Lord to fulfill His promises to Israel at the same time.

We tend to think the only reason for the rapture is to get the Church out of the way of the End Times judgments. But this shows us there's another reason why the Church can't be on Earth during any of Daniel's 70th Week. We have to leave so Israel can come back to God. From the looks of it, our departure is coming soon. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 10-08-11

Dear concerned I have seen in the verses refrenced that, God took out a people for his name of the gentiles that should be saved, Jesus will return and build again the tabernacle of David, he will set it up, they will be the residue of men and gentiles, describing "Few" upon whom his name is called or the chosen or elect of Christ.

I see Jesus Christ returning in power and glory, "first" resurrecting and gathering the believer on the "Last Day" then "second" resurrecting and delivereing the wicked to eternal damnation, the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire, 2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV, then the Fathers house that Jesus Christ has, built, and prepared will be revealed in the "New Jerusalem" seen in Revelation 21-22 KJV for eternity.

Acts 15:13-18 KJV

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

John 14:1-3 KJV

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 21:1-5 KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Truth7t7

Edited October 19, 2011 by truth7t7

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Littlelambseativy.

The Pre-Trib Rapture In Acts 15:13-18

A number of people have wondered about using Acts 15:13-18 to support my position that the rapture of the church has to precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week. Most of their comments have contained a request for a clearer understanding of why I do this, so here it is.

It was almost 20 years after the cross when the Council of Jerusalem took place. James, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, some believers from the Pharisees, and others had gathered to settle the issue of whether Gentiles had to convert to Judaism before they could become Christians. But another question, unspoken, was also on their minds and as Jews it was even more important to them. “If not, what's to become of Israel?”

The Pharisees argued that the path to Christianity for Jews and Gentiles alike was through Judaism. To them this meant keeping the Law, being circumcised and following the traditions in addition to recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Then Peter, Barnabas, and Paul presented a different opinion, based on seeing firsthand the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles. They said because of that, Gentiles should be allowed to come directly into the Church. Now let's turn to Acts 15:13 for the outcome of the meeting.

When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon (Peter) has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. (Acts 15:13-14)

The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

'After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages. (Acts 15:15-18)

While I agree with you that the Jews and Isra'el are not shelved permanently, you need to rethink your position on the separation of Isra'el and the "Church." One must be extremely careful NOT to think that God has separate programs for the two! Both groups of people are justified by God BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and BY BLOOD! Regardless in what age a person lived, they were ALWAYS justified by faith and not by works! One can see this in the lives of Avraham, Moshe, and David! It was ALWAYS by faith and never by one's deeds of righteousness:

Job 9:1-21

1 Then Job answered and said,

2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?

5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.

11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.

12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.

14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?

15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.

17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?

20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

KJV

Ps. 51:1-12

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

KJV

Isa. 43:19-26

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.

24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

KJV

Isa. 45:17-25

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

KJV

Rom. 4:1-10

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

KJV

Gal. 3:6-14

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

KJV

Gal. 2:15-16

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

KJV

Heb. 11:24-29

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

KJV

So, it doesn't matter who the individual was or in what age he lived, a man was always, ever justified by God outside of the deeds of the Law or the sacrifices! The sacrifices, particularly the Paschal Lamb and the burnt offerings, were SYMBOLS representing what Keves haPesach Elohiym would do for all!

What Does That Mean?

In simple language James, the brother of Jesus and Head of the Church in Jerusalem, said Israel was being set aside while the Lord took a people from among the Gentiles for Himself (or for His name's sake.) Remember, 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 Week prophecy had transpired. It was becoming obvious that with the Lord's crucifixion the clock had stopped short of the promised 70 weeks. Although Jerusalem and the Temple had not yet been destroyed the Lord's prophecy that they soon would be was a matter of public record.

In a sense, you're right here. Yeshua` Himself split the 70th Seven:

Matt. 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

However, do not forget the REST of Romans 11 and Ephesians 2!

Rom. 11:1-32

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (RESURRECTION!)

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God does not renig on His promises!)

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

KJV

Eph. 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (If Gentiles are the "fellowcitizens with the saints," who are the "saints?")

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

We have been placed into Yeshua`s Isra'el - the Olive Tree! We have become "believing Jews," whether we were once Jews who now have become believing Jews or we were once Gentiles who now have become adopted believing Jews!

Already there were signs that all was not well where the Temple was concerned. The Jewish Talmud records four ominous indications that trouble was coming. (Talmud Mas. Yoma 39b)

1. In the Yom Kippur service two goats were brought to the High Priest, one was to be “for the Lord” (the peace offering) and the other was “for Azazel”, also known as the scape goat. They were chosen by lot and the lot for the Lord's goat had always come up in the High priest's right hand. After the cross it never did again.

2. A scarlet cord tied the scape goat to the door of the temple during the service. After the High priest symbolically placed the sins of Israel on the head of the scape goat, he cut the cord leaving some on the goat's horn and the rest on the Temple door. Then it was led to its death in the wilderness. Previously, the portion on the Temple door had always turned white when the scape goat died. This was seen as a fulfillment of Isaiah 1:18, “Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be white as snow” indicating Israel's sins had been forgiven. After the cross the cord never turned white again.

3. The westernmost light on the seven branched Menorah would no longer stay lit. The number seven signifies divine completion, while man's number is 6. The seven lights meant that together with God, Israel was complete and brought light to the world. But now, with only 6 lights that would burn, it was obvious God had left them.

4. The main Temple doors began opening by themselves. The priests saw this as a warning that Zechariah 11:1 would soon be fufilled. “Open your doors, O Lebanon, so that fires may devour your cedars.”

During the conquest of Jerusalem the Romans set fire to the Temple. It's roof was made of cedar from Lebanon covered in thin sheets of gold. The intense heat from the fire melted the gold and it ran down the walls into the cracks between the stones. After the fire had burned out, the Roman soldiers dismantled the Temple stone by stone to get the gold. When they were finished the Lord's Palm Sunday prophecy had been dramatically fulfilled. “They will not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you” (Luke 19:44) .

When James referred to Peter speaking of the Lord taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself in Acts 15:13-14 the Greek words he used for “taking from” were lambano ek. Together they mean to take (something) with the hand in order to carry (it) away from a certain time and place. In this case the something is the Church (the people for Himself), and the certain time and place would be carried away from is the restoration of Israel on Earth for the final seven years of their covenant with God. We know this because the first two words of Acts 15:15, which talks about rebuilding the Temple, are “after this”, after the Church is gone. Whether he knew it or not, James was saying the rapture of the Church would precede the beginning of Daniel's 70^th Week.

As a Messianic Jew, I have both heard of the four signs and believe in their authenticity. However, they were not verified by God's Word, and adamant, blind Jews will consistently deny them. Josephus described the search for the gold in the Temple; so that is true, as far as we can tell from history. HOWEVER, to get the "Rapture" out of the Greek words "lambano ek," or rather "lambein ex," is silly. He is not "LEADING His people OUT of the world"; He is "LEADING a people for His Name OUT of the Gentiles" ("lambein ex ethnoos laos too onomati autou")! That's a HUGE difference!

Then What Happens?

In Acts 15:15-18 James quoted from Amos 9:11-12 to confirm his understanding that after the Lord has taken the Church He'll cause the Temple to be rebuilt. Like we saw above they knew it would soon be destroyed, but James used a prophecy from Amos that was already 800 years old to show the Temple will be rebuilt when the Lord has finished with the Church. After that the gentiles who will have missed the rapture will have one final chance to be saved as well. This settled the issue of Israel's future.

From Daniel 9:24-27 we know that rebuilding their Temple will be a sign that Israel has returned to its covenant relationship with God and the remaining 70^th week of Daniel's prophecy is under way. The only reason for a Temple to exist is to allow Israel to conduct Old Covenant rituals and sacrifices. Daniel 9:27 says the anti-Christ will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the 70^th week. This tells us a Temple will have been erected and sacrifices offered again beginning sometime earlier.

I don't have a problem with Ya`acov's (James') quote from `Amowc 9:11-12 referring to the rebuilding of the "Tent of David," but are you sure he was talking about the Temple or was he talking about the "household of David," as in the "sukkah of David?" The FAMILY of David! What was the reason for rebuilding David's "sukkah" in `Amowc 9?

Amos 9:12

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

KJV

Also, don't use Dani'el 9:27 to support the hypothesis that "the anti-Christ will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the 70^th week." Dani'el 9:27 is talking about the MESSIAH, not the "anti-Christ!" HE is the One who caused "the sacrifice and oblation to cease" (Heb. 10:1-22 with Matt. 27:50-54)! HE is the One who made "it (the city) desolate" "for the overspreading of abominations" (Matt. 23:1-39)! In both the nouns of the construct state of the Hebrew language and the prepositional phrase of the English language, the "prince who shall come" ("naagiyd habaa' ") of verse 26 CANNOT be the antecedent of the pronouns "he" of verse 27! The antecedent of the pronouns "he" MUST go back to the subject noun "Messiah" of verse 26.

So here's the scope of the passage. Following the cross, Israel was temporarily set aside while God began His redemptive work among the Gentiles. His first work was to build His Church, against which the gates of Hell will not prevail (Matt.18:18).

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel was to be hardened in part during this time. Paul was talking about Israel's heart which would be hardened against understanding. Remember in Luke 19:41-45 Jesus said the obvious fact that their long awaited Messiah had visited them would hence forth be hidden from their eyes. Paul said this would be the case all through the time the Lord was focused on the Church. The fact that some say more Jews have come to Jesus in the past 19 years than in the previous 1900 years may be an indication that the time of hardening is coming to an end.

In Paul's day, the Greek word translated full number (fullness) was often used in a nautical sense. It referred to the number of crew members necessary for a commercial ship to set sail. Because of the dangers involved in being caught short handed during a storm at sea, ships could not leave port until they had the full number of sailors aboard. Also the word translated "come in" meant to arrive at a scheduled destination. (We've all heard the phrase “waiting for my ship to come in”.) In Romans 11:25 Paul used these metaphors to describe the Church leaving Earth and arriving at our Heavenly destination before Israel's heart is softened.

When the full number of the Gentiles has been reached we'll be whisked away to our Father's house (John 14:2-3) while He turns His attention back to Israel. At that time, the remaining seven years of Daniel's prophecy will play out. Through the most devastating judgments ever visited upon Earth the nations among which Israel has been scattered will be completely destroyed, Israel will be purified to prepare for the coming Kingdom Age, and the remnant of the Gentiles will get their final chance at salvation.

Sorry, but the context of John 14:1-3 also does NOT support being "whisked away to our Father's house!" It is an example of the logical fallacy of "non sequitur" to suggest that He will come back to take us to the home He has been preparing. It doesn't necessarily follow that He returns to whisk us away! To the contrary, this is not an occurrence that happens all the time at the end of each of our physical lives, but at ONE TIME when Yeshua` physically returns! Would you really expect Yeshua` to return each and every time that a believer dies?! How would He get ANYTHING done in His Father's house? Just because He has been preparing us a place within His Father's house, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-3), does NOT mean that He will take us there when He returns! To the contrary, let's look at the context:

John 14:1-21

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

KJV

Yeshua` is promising to COME BACK TO THEM (US), not the other way around! At NO time within this context does He say He is going to take us anywhere! He just promised them (and us) that they (and we) would be together again (or for the first time) and that He would never leave them (or us) again! Even in the book of Revelation, Yochanan (John) told us that the New Jerusalem - the Father's Tent - would COME DOWN TO THE NEW EARTH! It does NOT say that we will go up to it!

Rev. 21:2-3

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

God and the New Jerusalem will be WITH US, NOT we with God!

But Wait, There's More

If you stop to think about it, these few verses in Acts 15 answer several important theological questions. They show the New covenant did not replace the Old Covenant, but merely interrupted it. They prove God didn't intend for the Church to replace Israel in His plan forever, He just set Israel aside temporarily so the door of salvation could be opened to the Gentiles. In Isaiah 49:6 the Father said to the Son;

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

With the added insight from Romans 11:25 we can also confirm that Israel and the Church are like oil and water in that they don't mix. For one to be here the other has to be gone. The two systems are theologically incompatible. You can't have a system of faith evidenced by obedience to the Law complete with daily animal sacrifices functioning beside a system of grace through faith alone with no other requirement than to believe in the one He has sent (John 6:29).

Therefore the Church is not the next dot on a straight line from Creation to Eternity. It's a giant right hand turn that takes believers to a unique and exclusive destiny that no other believers will share, and allows the Lord to fulfill His promises to Israel at the same time.

We tend to think the only reason for the rapture is to get the Church out of the way of the End Times judgments. But this shows us there's another reason why the Church can't be on Earth during any of Daniel's 70th Week. We have to leave so Israel can come back to God. From the looks of it, our departure is coming soon. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 10-08-11

We most certainly DO mix! “Oil and water” indeed. If you believe that, I’ve got some swampland here in Florida I’d like to sell you!

We are to be ONE people! Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together without any middle wall of partition between us! The focus does need to shift from the Goyim to the Y’hudiym, from the Gentiles to the Jews, but one should review the book of Ephesians one more time:

Eph. 2:11-21

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

KJV

In the Messiah’s love,

Roy

[Montana Marv]

Roy

This is what you said in the above post.

Sorry, but the context of John 14:1-3 also does NOT support being "whisked away to our Father's house!" It is an example of the logical fallacy of "non sequitur" to suggest that He will come back to take us to the home He has been preparing. It doesn't necessarily follow that He returns to whisk us away! To the contrary, this is not an occurrence that happens all the time at the end of each of our physical lives, but at ONE TIME when Yeshua` physically returns! Would you really expect Yeshua` to return each and every time that a believer dies?! How would He get ANYTHING done in His Father's house? Just because He has been preparing us a place within His Father's house, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-3), does NOT mean that He will take us there when He returns! To the contrary, let's look at the context:

No place in Scripture does it say that the Fathers house is the New Jerusalem.

You totally missed John 14:4 - You know the way to the place where I am going.

John 14:1-4 - Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me, In my Fathers house are (present tense) many rooms, If it were not so I would have told you. I am going there (to My Fathers house - present tense) to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me (in My Fathers house), that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.

Unless you don't get the picture, The house of the Father is not on this Earth. So we are not whisked away at the Second Coming to be with Jesus here on this earth for a thousand years. We are whisked away to be with Jesus in His Father's house (in Heaven). For this is where the wedding supper will take place.

Matt 25:1,6 - At that time the Kingdom of Heaven will be like (similar to) ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the Bridegroom, v.6 at midnight the cry rang out; Here is the Bridegroom, Come out to meet Him.

Do you notice it does not say come out to meet the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is not anywhere close to the Second Coming. The Bridegroom Raptures His Bride away to take her to His Fathers house where Jesus is at this time, preparing a place for us. When He is done preparing this place for us, He unexpectedly takes us away to be with Him. This is a honeymoon, not the Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Montana Marv!

Roy

This is what you said in the above post.

Sorry, but the context of John 14:1-3 also does NOT support being "whisked away to our Father's house!" It is an example of the logical fallacy of "non sequitur" to suggest that He will come back to take us to the home He has been preparing. It doesn't necessarily follow that He returns to whisk us away! To the contrary, this is not an occurrence that happens all the time at the end of each of our physical lives, but at ONE TIME when Yeshua` physically returns! Would you really expect Yeshua` to return each and every time that a believer dies?! How would He get ANYTHING done in His Father's house? Just because He has been preparing us a place within His Father's house, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-3), does NOT mean that He will take us there when He returns! To the contrary, let's look at the context:

No place in Scripture does it say that the Fathers house is the New Jerusalem.

Good to read you're here at WB, too!

Okay, I can see this is going to be hard to explain to you, but the Scriptures DO say that the Father's house is the New Jerusalem! Let me try to explain: The tent of Avraham in Genesis is the Hebrew word "ohel" (OT:168) (and no, I'm not swearing). That's a Bedouin tent - a movable home that nomadic shepherds can take up and move with their herds as their cattle, sheep and goats move to new pasture lands when they've eaten all they could at a particular place. This particular Hebrew word was translated as both "tent" and "tabernacle" and it is the word used for the House of ADONAI called "the Tabernacle" EVERYWHERE it is mentioned in the Torah (the Pentateuch, from Genesis to Deuteronomy)!

The Greek word that was used to translate "ohel" (OT:168) is "skeenee." (NT:4633). This can be seen in such passages as Acts 7:44-46; Heb. 8:1-5; 9:1-28; and Heb. 11:8-16. In each of these locations, the SAME TENTS called an "ohel" in the Hebrew of the OT is the word "skeenee" in the NT. (Remember: I simply use an "ee" for "eta" and an "e" for "epsilon"; therefore, the word is pronounced "SKAY-nay.")

Now, look carefully at Hebrews 11:8-16 and 12:18-24:

Heb. 11:8-16

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

KJV

Heb. 12:18-24

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

KJV

In both 11:16 and 12:22, the word "heavenly" is the Greek word "epouranios" (NT:2032) meaning "of or related to above the sky!" We are TOLD that this "epouranios" Jerusalem is the "city of the living God!" The word "prepared" in 11:16 is from the SAME GREEK WORD used in John 14:1-3 twice, "hetoimazoo" (NT:2090) also translated as "prepare." Now, for the "coup de grace":

Rev. 21:1-4

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (NT:3772), prepared (NT:2090) as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (NT:4633) of God is with men, and he will dwell (NT:4637) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

KJV

Notice two things about this passage: (1) The word "heaven" in verse 2 is just "ouranos," meaning "the sky," not "epouranios." The city comes OUT OF THE SKY! (2) Even the Greek word translated "he will dwell," "skeenoosei," a form of "skeeno-oo" (NT:4637), is derived from the word "skeenee!" We might say "He will put up his tent with them" or "He will camp with them!" The New Jerusalem IS God's tabernacle - God's tent - God's "skeenee" - God's "ohel" - God's HOME with us - God's HOUSE, just as much as Avraham's "ohel" was Avraham's "HOUSE!"

It's not "Heaven" we should be anticipating. We should be anticipating the RETURN OF YESHUA` THE MESSIAH (JESUS CHRIST) and the RESURRECTION! HE is the Way! After He has prepared the "Place," He will return and prepare a PEOPLE (during the Millennium) and the EARTH (with the creation of a New Earth and a New Sky) for the "Place" He has prepared to land and be our HOME!

Now, let's look at what you wrote:

You totally missed John 14:4 - You know the way to the place where I am going.

I didn't miss it; Yeshua` said, "You know the Way (ME) to the place where I am going!"

John 14:1-4 - Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me, In my Fathers house are (present tense) many rooms, If it were not so I would have told you. I am going there (to My Fathers house - present tense) to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me (in My Fathers house), that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.

Yes, the "are" is in present tense, but the "I am going there," although the present of "poruomai," a middle voice of "peira," meaning "a test" or "a trial," itself meaning "I traverse; I travel; I remove myself," we translate it as a present perfect tense in English, which is an action that is currently going on and will be completed in the future. He is IN THE PROCESS of going there, not that He's already GONE! Where I object STRONGLY here is your understanding/translation of the next sentence!

He did NOT say "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me (in My Father's house), that you also may be where I am"! THAT IS COMPLETELY WRONG!!!

The Greek is this:

3 Kai ean poreuthoo kai hetoimasoo topon humin, palin erchomai kai paraleempsomai humas pros emauton, hina hopou eimi ego kai humeis eete.

3 Kai = 3 And

ean = if

poreuthoo = I-am-going

kai = and

hetoimasoo = I-am-preparing

topon = a-place

humin, = for-you,

palin = again

erchomai = I-am-coming

kai = and

paraleempsomai = I-am-receiving-near

humas = you

pros = toward

emauton, = myself,

hina = so-that

hopou = where

eimi = exist

ego = I

kai = and/also

humeis = you

eete. = may-exist.

3 And if I-am-going and I-am-preparing a-place for-you, again I-am-coming and I-am-receiving-near you toward myself, so-that where exist I and/also you may-exist.

Rearranged in English natural order,

3 And if I am going and I am preparing a place for you, I am coming again and I am receiving you near to myself, so that where I exist, you also may exist.

The words do NOT include wording that means "take you to be with me in My Father's house!" Those are YOUR words, not Yeshua`s, and you need to quit putting words in His mouth!

Unless you don't get the picture, The house of the Father is not on this Earth. So we are not whisked away at the Second Coming to be with Jesus here on this earth for a thousand years. We are whisked away to be with Jesus in His Father's house (in Heaven). For this is where the wedding supper will take place.

Matt 25:1,6 - At that time the Kingdom of Heaven will be like (similar to) ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the Bridegroom, v.6 at midnight the cry rang out; Here is the Bridegroom, Come out to meet Him.

Do you notice it does not say come out to meet the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is not anywhere close to the Second Coming. The Bridegroom Raptures His Bride away to take her to His Fathers house where Jesus is at this time, preparing a place for us. When He is done preparing this place for us, He unexpectedly takes us away to be with Him. This is a honeymoon, not the Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Again, you are ASSUMING things that the text does NOT say! I agree; the house of the Father is not on this Earth,...YET! But, His house - the New Jerusalem - is a very physical, very tangible, very concrete place with measurable dimensions, definable materials, and a building designed to meet physical needs! It provides food, water, and shelter, as well as medication, recreation and purpose! We're just not ready for it! There is growth and maturation necessary before we can enter it.

On the other hand, in several locations of Scripture, we learn that we ARE "whisked away at the Second Coming to be with Jesus here on this earth for a thousand years." What is Matthew 24:29-31 if not a "whisking away of those for whom the Messiah sends His messengers?" What you are missing is the REAL REASON WHY we are "whisked away!" It's not for some fictitious "honey moon" off in some mystical, mythical, ethereal place called "Heaven!" We go to a very real, very concrete, very physical location called haEretz Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el)! When are you going to understand just who is at the center of prophecy in the Tanakh (the OT)? These prophecies were not written for all of mankind (although all may participate if they humble themselves); they were not written for the "Church," as though it was some universal entity consisting of Gentile believers! They were written for the CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL! Gentiles just get to participate through extension while the Israelis are temporarily blinded and fallen!

Are you reading the Scriptures for understanding, or are you looking for some loophole to include the "Rapture" prior to the Second Coming? Look at the wording throughout Matthew 24 and 25: Verse 30 says "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven"; verse 37 says "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"; verse 39 says "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"; verse 42 says "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come"; verse 44 says "be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh"; verse 46 says "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing"; verse 13 (of Matt. 25) says "Watch therefore: for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh"; verse 19 says "after a long time the lord of those servants cometh and reckoneth with them"; verse 31 says "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him"; verse 34 says "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand"; and verse 40 says "And the King shall answer and say unto them."

So, really? You're going to find the "Rapture" happening 7 years prior to His Second Coming in the MIDDLE of all this CONSISTENT warning to stay awake, to watch, and to be on guard for His Second Coming?

Maybe the problem really is this: Some expect Yeshua`s judgment only to be harsh. Yeshua` CAN be harsh if harshness is warranted, but the time of the Millennium is a time when He can CONSTRUCTIVELY GUIDE His children in their growth and maturity and THERAPEUTICALLY HEAL their hurts. Let's face it: Mankind has issues, even those who call themselves "Christian," and those issues are not just going to magically "go away" when we get our new bodies! Some Christians have wronged other Christians; some believers have wronged other believers, and while we are all called to forgive one another, the hurts take time to heal whether in this life or the next. REMEMBER THIS: The tears are not wiped away until AFTER the Millennium in the New Earth and AFTER the New Jerusalem descends (Rev. 21:1-4).

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

[Montana Marv]

Roy

Where is Christ Jesus at this time.

Col 3:1 - Since then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. John 14:3b - I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am.

Christ is seated in His Fathers House at this time. He is our advocate (Job 16:19) against Satan. He, Christ is preparing a place for us (His Bride), in His Fathers House. The New Jerusalem is for all, not just the Bride; But that does not take place until after the New Earth and the new Heaven are made.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

I realize I am new to this forum so my opinion may or may not carry any weight. After 30 years of Bible study I can find no where in the Bible of another mass resurrection of believers,other than the one spoken of in Revelation 20,called the FIRST Resurrection. So,that resurrection can be no other but the "rapture" and we all can see it doesn't take place prior to the 70th week.