The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Botz]

Praise the Lord!

Sounds an awful lot like David in Ps 32:1-5 after his sin with Bathsheba.

But you are an example of the difference between backsliding of the regenerated, and the unregenerated.

Somtimes the regenerate backslide and fall into gross sin. But they are acting out of character, and make themselves miserable,

so that they eventually seek and find restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, your lapse seems to you to have been madness.

One more point: eternal security is about God preserving us, not we preserving ourselves.

That is my understanding as well Eleanor.

I think part of the difficulty is expressed through Scriptures that seem to indicate the necessity to persevere in faith in order to maintain our Salvation,

whereas if we understood more clearly that we have been redeemed once and for all through the eternal blood it would cause us to view these difficult

passages through a different lens.

It is a bit like a Believer being blasted with all sorts of scientific arguments that seem to have weight and merit, and yet you know beyond anything else,

that if the science which you can't even fully comprehend is contrary to clear Scripture, then it is the science that needs adjusting not the Scripture....and

within Scripture if one thing appears to contradict another, then it has to be subjected not only to the fuller context, but placed against the heavier revelation

and become subservient to it.

Thus to follow this thought through...if we know we are born again from above having experienced another birth, that we have the seal of the Holy Spirit and

know that our lives are written in the Lambs Book of Life....anything that appears to say otherwise within Scripture is being wrongly understood and open

to misinterpretation because Scripture never comntradicts itself, it only appears that way at times when we don't have the full picture...

Anyway that's how I see things, it probably stems from the legal and Talmudic Jewish way of prioritising conflicting understanding (the kal v'chomer/light and heavy).

Interesting.

I have found only one instance of "conflict" in Scripture which requires prioritising,

and that's in the moral code regarding preservation of innocent human life.

Its preservation trumps all other morality; e.g., lying and deceit.

Are you aware of any others?

Yes.

I think once you understand this method applied to making righteous decisions in the face of conflicting arguments/law (my definition), you come across it all over the place

some more subtle than others...the main one that springs to mind is :-

John 7:19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” 20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?” 21Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel. 22 “For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath? 24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Or see Matthew 12:1 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Or perhaps Matthew 12:10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Jesus is showing a principle by which there is a higher Law...in reality it is the Law of love...but so many of His legally minded opponents sought to justify themselves by quoting the Law, and not understanding Love...hence they were blind to Jesus because He is love...and by using the Law in the way many of them did, they not only missed their Messiah, but they brought G-d down to their own corrupt understanding...aptly demonstrating that many of them thought they were subject to the Law, but in actual fact were blind leaders of the blind...

[~candice~]

OK, I might not do a good job at working this, but...

I understand many of the debates we have on this issue, sometimes fail to differentiate between the permanency of salvation from God's point of view, and us having assurance of our salvation... that is us knowing we are saved (especially when it pertains to the backslidden).

Here's my issue with it all... I don't think it is possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and not know it. So if the Holy Spirit is our seal, our guarantee of our inheritance to come, then how can you have an assurance of salvation without this seal? If you want to know if you are saved you look within to see if you have this Holy Spirit.

If those who are backslidden did not lose the Holy Spirit, then they would know they were saved and not wonder and be anxious about it.

Why do we so often equivocate about the salvation of the backslidden? IMO, either they have the Spirit and know they have it and are therefore saved, or they don't.

[~candice~]

OK, I might not do a good job at working this, but...

I understand many of the debates we have on this issue, sometimes fail to differentiate between the permanency of salvation from God's point of view, and us having assurance of our salvation... that is us knowing we are saved (especially when it pertains to the backslidden).

Here's my issue with it all... I don't think it is possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and not know it. So if the Holy Spirit is our seal, our guarantee of our inheritance to come, then how can you have an assurance of salvation without this seal? If you want to know if you are saved you look within to see if you have this Holy Spirit.

If those who are backslidden did not lose the Holy Spirit, then they would know they were saved and not wonder and be anxious about it.

Why do we so often equivocate about the salvation of the backslidden? IMO, either they have the Spirit and know they have it and are therefore saved, or they don't.

Well, I think you can dampen the joy, comfort, peace and contentment given by the Spirit by indulging the flesh, or giving yourself over to earthly things.

Without that felt sense of his presence, a backslider would be in doubt, even though he may actually be saved, because he has no external or internal evidence that he is saved.

I understand that diminished recognition of the Holy Spirit when we fall into sin. But can you point to anyone in Scripture who was filled with the HS and didn't know it???

[Botz]

Hi Candice and Eleanor,

I think what both of you are saying is part of my understanding about salvation.

I cannot understand how someone who was ever filled with the Spirit, even if they walk away from living a godly life and following Jesus can deny and reject the reality

of this tranformation/G-d awareness...as I believe even in their darkest moments the Holy Spirit will still be actively wooing them, speaking to their hearts, causing them

to reconsider things, presenting the love of the Father to them...pleading the blood of Jesus.

However as Eleanor explains, a person can choose to walk in the flesh to such a degree that they shut out and stiffle the voice of the Spirit to the extent that the assurance

and confidence they had in the L-rd and in their standing as a saved individual is now replaced with doubt, fear and uncertainty, and the motivational force in their life has

all but silenced the voice of the Spirit.

Even a fairly lazy Believer who puts their life on cruise control is subject to an element of this, and the lure of the world and a fleshly perspective are apt to gain some

sort of a foot-hold. That is why I believe it is imperative that we recognize the struggle/battle of living everyday practicing the presence of Jesus, and understand that

we need to be filled to overflowing with the Spirit, (not harping back to past experiences), consuming fresh manna (give us this day our daily bread) and being renewed

in our minds....and all of this should come from a grasp of the tremendous gift of salvation we have, and the liberty that is ours in the L-rd, not from sort of legalistic

idealism which is merely another opportunity for the flesh.

1Peter 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

2Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

Ephesians 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

1Cor 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?

Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

9 If I take the wings of the dawn,

If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10 Even there Your hand will lead me,

And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,

And the light around me will be night,”

12 Even the darkness is not dark to You,

And the night is as bright as the day.

Darkness and light are alike to You.

13 For You formed my inward parts;

You wove me in my mother’s womb.

14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

Wonderful are Your works,

And my soul knows it very well.

The truth is that the love of Jesus extends to any back-slider all the time...they are just a heart cry away from a complete change

and such is the power of the blood, that anything that has bound their mind, their thoughts their life-style, can be broken off them

in the twinkling of an eye, and they are washed and cleansed and free to follow Jesus with no guilt or condemnation laid to their

account.

[enoob57]

Anything else would lift the power of sin above the (Blood=Life) of Our Lord Jesus The Christ.... nothing new! satan has

spent his entire time trying to accomplish just that-> raising himself above the One Who created him... Love, Steven

[nChrist]

One can only be Saved once in a lifetime, so it's also one of the most important events of a lifetime. We depend on God to start with and forever, not ourselves or other men. We receive God's Promises at the moment of Salvation and have Eternal Life. When in doubt, always remember that God keeps all of His Promises most perfectly.

NOT SAVED - NEVER SAVED

SAVED ONCE ONLY - SAVED FOREVER

[~candice~]

That is not the same Eleanor. As believers we have the Holy Spirit indwelling within us, permanently, in the older covenant they had the Holy Spirit come upon them for a time and for a reason. You cannot equate Saul's loss of the Spirit upon him with a believer being fully empied of the Holy Spirit which once indwelled them.

[Guest shiloh357]

I just revived a thread called "OSAS" in the controversial section, where you called OSAS a myth, and compared it to a belief in pink unicorns. In the same thread, you used the term eternal security/perseverance of the saints interchangably. It was from 2010. In older threads, you had defended OSAS.

In earlier threads I denfended OSAS, but that was when I had not fully understood the difference betwen Eternal Security and the myth of OSAS. When the term OSAS is used, it communicates a different idea than Eternal Security does. In later threads, I have come to understand the difference between Eternal Security and what people call mistakenly refer to as OSAS. OSAS is the belief that once you are saved, you are always saved even if you convert to Satanism or some other religion and forsake the Lord. That is NOT the doctrine of Eternal Security which teaches that genuinely saved people do not have to worry that God will not be faithful to His promises. They can rely on the fact that due to God's faithfulness, He is not going to change His mind and rescind salvation.

While I don't like the term "perseverance of the saints" That Calvinist teaching comes closer to communicating the notion of eternal security than OSAS does. Perseverance of the saints is part of five-point Calvinism and while I am not a five-point Calvinist, that Perseverance of the saints is rooted in a belief about God's faithfuness and sovereignty and not in some misgiven notion that I am saved and am free to live in as much sin as I choose without impunity or accountability. EVen Calvinists believe as I believe that Sslvation is in transformational and that a genuine believer is a changed person who possesses a heart that seeks to love and serve God. We may stumble at times but it is in a sincere desire to serve God, no a desire to live in sin. I don't promote perseverance of the saints because it is linked to the notions of limited atonement, irresistable grace and unconditional election, three views that I cannot support.

In this thread, you were back defending OSAS again, even though you once called it a myth. By the way, in case you didn't know it, this thread is in defense of OSAS, and you didn't say one word against the title till I brought up this contradiction of yours.

Because sometimes, it is not worth belaboring the point over and over and over and over. OSAS has become THE label that many of you mistakenly use to refer to Eternal Security. In some cases, it is ignroance. In other cases, like yours, it stems from the need to assign values to me that I don't hold to in order to have something to refute. I have NEVER said that people can live in sin and remain saved. Yet, that fact doesn't stop you from assigning that to me anyway. You put the lie in my mouth and arguing agasint it. I was content to let it go until you brought up what you thought was a contradiction. There is no contradiction. The problem is that you cannot really come up with anything of substance to debate about so you try to drum up some alleged contradiction in order to have something to say. My postion is internally consistent. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

After a while I give up trying to make the point because no one is listening so it is just easier to use the term OSAS but to use it in a way that communicates what I am saying not what the made up label of OSAS is used to promote.

By the way, you said there is not a single example of a truly born again person in the New Testament turning back. That is really convenient the way you worded that, because it leaves the door open for a seemingly saved person who wasn't really saved to turn back, like Judas Iscarriot.

Nothing in Judas' biblical profile suggesets he was ever "saved" or was ever a genuine follower of Jesus.

It could also be some among Jesus early followers that turned back. Again, the issue is one of knowing who is really saved. If it is possible to think you are saved when you are not, there is no such thing as eternal security, because you could be deceived into thinking you are saved when you are not.

The nature of salvation is that a genuine believer will KNOW they are saved and that knowledge will be borne out in how they live. Salvation is not a status. Salvation is a person. Salvation is Jesus Christ living within our hearts in the Person of the Holy Spirit and He lives within us testifying that we are children of God (Rom 8:17) and He is the guarantee, the assurance of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14). People who don't know from one day to next, need to discover why they don't really know. The Bible says we can know we are saved (I John 5:11-13). Those who teach agasint assurance of salvation have nothing to offer a genuine believer.

[Fez]

I just revived a thread called "OSAS" in the controversial section, where you called OSAS a myth, and compared it to a belief in pink unicorns. In the same thread, you used the term eternal security/perseverance of the saints interchangably. It was from 2010. In older threads, you had defended OSAS.

In earlier denfended OSAS, but that was when I had not fully understood the difference betwen Eternal Security and the myth of OSAS. When the term OSAS is used, it communicates a different idea than Eternal Security does. In later threads, I have come to understand the difference between Eternal Security and what people call mistakenly refer to as OSAS. OSAS is the belief that once you are saved, you are always saved even if you convert to Satanism or some other religion and forsake the Lord. That is NOT the doctrine of Eternal Security which teaches that genuinely saved people do not have to worry that God will not be faithful to His promises. They can rely on the fact that due to God's faithfulness, He is not going to change His mind and rescind salvation.

While I don't like the term "perseverance of the saints" That Calvinist teaching comes closer to communicating the notion of eternal security than OSAS does. Perseverance of the saints is part of five-point Calvinism and while I am not a five-point Calvinist, that Perseverance of the saints is rooted in a belief about God's faithfuness and sovereignty and not in some misgiven notion that I am saved and am free to live in as much sin as I choose without impunity or accountability. EVen Calvinists believe as I believe that Sslvation is in transformational and that a genuine believer is a changed person who possesses a heart that seeks to love and serve God. We may stumble at times but it is in a sincere desire to serve God, no a desire to live in sin. I don't promote perseverance of the saints because it is linked to the notions of limited atonement, irresistable grace and unconditional election, three views that I cannot support.

In this thread, you were back defending OSAS again, even though you once called it a myth. By the way, in case you didn't know it, this thread is in defense of OSAS, and you didn't say one word against the title till I brought up this contradiction of yours.

Because sometimes, it is not worth belaboring the point over and over and over and over. OSAS has become THE label that many of you mistakenly use to refer to Eternal Security. In some cases, it is ignroance. In other cases, like yours, it stems from the need to assign values to me that I don't hold to in order to have something to refute. I have NEVER said that people can live in sin and remain saved. Yet, that fact doesn't stop you from assigning that to me anyway. You put the lie in my mouth and arguing agasint it. I was content to let it go until you brought up what you thought was a contradiction. There is no contradiction. The problem is that you cannot really come up with anything of substance to debate about so you try to drum up some alleged contradiction in order to have something to say. My postion is internally consistent. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

After a while I give up trying to make the point because no one is listening so it is just easier to use the term OSAS but to use it in a way that communicates what I am saying not what the made up label of OSAS is used to promote.

By the way, you said there is not a single example of a truly born again person in the New Testament turning back. That is really convenient the way you worded that, because it leaves the door open for a seemingly saved person who wasn't really saved to turn back, like Judas Iscarriot.

Nothing in Judas' biblical profile suggesets he was ever "saved" or was ever a genuine follower of Jesus.

It could also be some among Jesus early followers that turned back. Again, the issue is one of knowing who is really saved. If it is possible to think you are saved when you are not, there is no such thing as eternal security, because you could be deceived into thinking you are saved when you are not.

The nature of salvation is that a genuine believer will KNOW they are saved and that knowledge will be borne out in how they live. Salvation is not a status. Salvation is a person. Salvation is Jesus Christ living within our hearts in the Person of the Holy Spirit and He lives within us testifying that we are children of God (Rom 8:17) and He is the guarantee, the assurance of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14). People who don't know from one day to next, need to discover why they don't really know. The Bible says we can know we are saved (I John 5:11-13). Those who teach agasint assurance of salvation have nothing to offer a genuine believer.

He's staring to make sense.... Much as I hate to admit it. Sigh....

[hmbld]

Well, please excuse me as i try to say something, and i admit i usually do not choose the best way to word what i mean, but here is my attempt, lol.

I have a little trouble where several places i read someone say something about if you die in sin, you were never saved in the first place.

Can even the most Spirit filled person you know, make it through one day without sinning? Or as I have heard preached several times, how many can go even 5 minutes without any sin? What about if you, yourself knows for sure you have salvation, and say you get angry or hold some grudge against someone(seems a little too common for Christians to hold a grudge) and you get into car accident and die before you can set things right?

I am trying to see the argument that we can somehow hang on to or lose our salvation through what we do or do not do, but i can not see how we can take any credit for what Jesus has done once and for all.