Which of the 613 Laws should Messianic Gentiles observe?

[TrackerJack]

I'm struggling with Messianic Gentilism, and was wondering if someone had some insight.

First, I believe that all of the Torah is relevant to the every Christian, but I'm not sure which of these we should observe as Gentile Christians.

I believe this is a major sticking point with your average Christian. They see a long list of Do's and Dont's and think it's impossible to meet these expectations, so "why even try". They give up before examining this question, or give a trite answer that "we're no longer under the Law". I think this is a major reason Messianic Churches are so small, and if we can address it, hopefully grow the Messianic movement.

So how do you keep the Torah as a Messianic Gentile?

[other one]

I think it would greatly depend on why you were keeping them. If you're expecting salvation to come from them, it could be very detrimental to you spiritually. If you're just wanting to live a good life and get along with your neighbors, we all might benefit from keeping them.

If you keep the commandments that Jesus gave us, you don't need to worry with any of them.

That's just a gospel according to Sam..... not to be confused with "The Gospel"

[TrackerJack]

I think it would greatly depend on why you were keeping them. If you're expecting salvation to come from them, it could be very detrimental to you spiritually. If you're just wanting to live a good life and get along with your neighbors, we all might benefit from keeping them.

If you keep the commandments that Jesus gave us, you don't need to worry with any of them.

That's just a gospel according to Sam..... not to be confused with "The Gospel"

Good point. Keeping the Torah is definitely NOT a means of salvation.

This thread isn't intended to debate the value of observing the Torah.

Since I don't attend a Messianic church, I want to know which Laws are actually observed by a Messianic Jew/gentile.

Edited May 18, 2012 by TrackerJack

[mizzdy]

I think it would greatly depend on why you were keeping them. If you're expecting salvation to come from them, it could be very detrimental to you spiritually. If you're just wanting to live a good life and get along with your neighbors, we all might benefit from keeping them.

If you keep the commandments that Jesus gave us, you don't need to worry with any of them.

That's just a gospel according to Sam..... not to be confused with "The Gospel"

Good point. Keeping the Torah is definitely NOT a means of salvation.

This thread isn't intended to debate the value of observing the Torah.

Since I don't attend a Messianic church, I want to know which Laws are actually observed by a Messianic Jew/gentile.

First off I dont call myself a Messianic gentile, although most see themselves as gentiles I find in scriptures what Yahweh says about gentiles and well honestly gentile has a pretty negative connotation, heathen is one translation, nation is another but it seems to mean a 'non' something. I dont think about what part of Torah to obey, I allow the Spirit to guide me where He wants me to be. I do believe that feasts, the Sabbaths all of His moedim are revelant for all believers, they point to Him, the shadow what will take place at His return and beyond. I have yet to wear tzitzits as is commanded for all of His faithful and well just dont feel compelled to wear them like most I know. I keep the Sabbath, I observe all His feasts as memorials, I even keep the new moon days. I eat cleanly but dont call it kosher as that brings up all those Judaic laws added to His. Its not hard, its not complicated in any way and just dont understand why people think it is. Heres a tid bit also for all you reading, I actually cover my head in fellowship and while in prayer too. I have a friend who is interested in coming to fellowship, shes mainstream gal but feels theres something missing in her church and she is finding more and more lately a calling to want to keep those 'Jewish' things. I really hope she comes with us! Shabbat shalom!

shalom,

Mizz

[Fez]

I think it would greatly depend on why you were keeping them. If you're expecting salvation to come from them, it could be very detrimental to you spiritually. If you're just wanting to live a good life and get along with your neighbors, we all might benefit from keeping them.

If you keep the commandments that Jesus gave us, you don't need to worry with any of them.

That's just a gospel according to Sam..... not to be confused with "The Gospel"

Good point. Keeping the Torah is definitely NOT a means of salvation.

This thread isn't intended to debate the value of observing the Torah.

Since I don't attend a Messianic church, I want to know which Laws are actually observed by a Messianic Jew/gentile.

First off I dont call myself a Messianic gentile, although most see themselves as gentiles I find in scriptures what Yahweh says about gentiles and well honestly gentile has a pretty negative connotation, heathen is one translation, nation is another but it seems to mean a 'non' something. I dont think about what part of Torah to obey, I allow the Spirit to guide me where He wants me to be. I do believe that feasts, the Sabbaths all of His moedim are revelant for all believers, they point to Him, the shadow what will take place at His return and beyond. I have yet to wear tzitzits as is commanded for all of His faithful and well just dont feel compelled to wear them like most I know. I keep the Sabbath, I observe all His feasts as memorials, I even keep the new moon days. I eat cleanly but dont call it kosher as that brings up all those Judaic laws added to His. Its not hard, its not complicated in any way and just dont understand why people think it is. Heres a tid bit also for all you reading, I actually cover my head in fellowship and while in prayer too. I have a friend who is interested in coming to fellowship, shes mainstream gal but feels theres something missing in her church and she is finding more and more lately a calling to want to keep those 'Jewish' things. I really hope she comes with us! Shabbat shalom!

shalom,

Mizz

Mizz your profile pic is a dead giveaway....

Bless you sister!

[mizzdy]

I think it would greatly depend on why you were keeping them. If you're expecting salvation to come from them, it could be very detrimental to you spiritually. If you're just wanting to live a good life and get along with your neighbors, we all might benefit from keeping them.

If you keep the commandments that Jesus gave us, you don't need to worry with any of them.

That's just a gospel according to Sam..... not to be confused with "The Gospel"

Good point. Keeping the Torah is definitely NOT a means of salvation.

This thread isn't intended to debate the value of observing the Torah.

Since I don't attend a Messianic church, I want to know which Laws are actually observed by a Messianic Jew/gentile.

First off I dont call myself a Messianic gentile, although most see themselves as gentiles I find in scriptures what Yahweh says about gentiles and well honestly gentile has a pretty negative connotation, heathen is one translation, nation is another but it seems to mean a 'non' something. I dont think about what part of Torah to obey, I allow the Spirit to guide me where He wants me to be. I do believe that feasts, the Sabbaths all of His moedim are revelant for all believers, they point to Him, the shadow what will take place at His return and beyond. I have yet to wear tzitzits as is commanded for all of His faithful and well just dont feel compelled to wear them like most I know. I keep the Sabbath, I observe all His feasts as memorials, I even keep the new moon days. I eat cleanly but dont call it kosher as that brings up all those Judaic laws added to His. Its not hard, its not complicated in any way and just dont understand why people think it is. Heres a tid bit also for all you reading, I actually cover my head in fellowship and while in prayer too. I have a friend who is interested in coming to fellowship, shes mainstream gal but feels theres something missing in her church and she is finding more and more lately a calling to want to keep those 'Jewish' things. I really hope she comes with us! Shabbat shalom!

shalom,

Mizz

Mizz your profile pic is a dead giveaway....

Bless you sister!

Hi Fez, not sure what ya mean, but I am not Jewish if thats what ya mean. I honestly don't think its 'a' commandment and see for the most part the reasons behind why Paul was saying that to that congregation yet I find that I like a bit of 'echad' with my those I fellowship with. It took me about 6 or so months of some intense prayer to come to cover my head during worship, praise and prayer. Honestly I can say it has enriched my life and walk with Him and thats what its all about, Yeshua our Savior and King!

shalom

Mizz

[jasoncran]

as a jew. i have no desire to do the law at present as all that is in the law when i repented dwells in all believers.that said i have done the feast of dedication. i will not be able to safely do it this year. for where im going to be that wont be worth that risk since its a non-salvinical and in order to do so i might to have to do it with unbelieving jews. no thanks.

hmm this year im focusing currently on ramban and the sages and what they have said on the torah. namely beersherit. interesting things on the creation account as to why its literal to them and should be.

[coheir]

I'm struggling with Messianic Gentilism, and was wondering if someone had some insight.

First, I believe that all of the Torah is relevant to the every Christian, but I'm not sure which of these we should observe as Gentile Christians.

I believe this is a major sticking point with your average Christian. They see a long list of Do's and Dont's and think it's impossible to meet these expectations, so "why even try". They give up before examining this question, or give a trite answer that "we're no longer under the Law". I think this is a major reason Messianic Churches are so small, and if we can address it, hopefully grow the Messianic movement.

So how do you keep the Torah as a Messianic Gentile?

I did not write this article but I believe it is dead on target. I hope this will help you decide what ou would like to do.

What is the relationship of Gentile Christians to the laws of the Torah?

Messiah’s Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the Church), while having much in common with Israel, is not identical to Israel. The New Covenant is not the same as the Old Covenant. Jews who enter the New Covenant remain Jews, and Gentiles who enter the New Covenant remain Gentiles. Gentile Believers are not the same as the Gentile foreigners who lived in the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant. Gentile Christians have an elevated status compared to the aliens who lived in the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant. They are fully co-heirs of the Kingdom with the Jewish saints. Being grafted into Israel doesn't mean that Gentile Believers become Israel or are required to live the same way as the Jewish people. Jews and Gentiles are one because of our one God and Father of all: “one Lord, one faith and one Baptism.” We share equally in the Spirit of God, who lives in all of us, and have the same hope of living forever in the New Jerusalem. Being one doesn’t negate the differences in roles and calling and lifestyle between Jews and Gentiles. link to source

Edited May 29, 2012 by mizzdy
edited by Mizzdy, added link to source

[JohnD]

The 613 mitzvot are rabbinical sage dogma for keeping Torah... which misunderstands the very purpose of Torah. Torah is living testimony that only one human being that ever lived could keep it (Yeshua HaNotsri). Rabbi Shaul (Apostle Paul) counted his pedigree and his keeping of Torah as rubbish that he may know Messiah.

Philippians 3:4-8 (KJV)

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

I am all about returning the Church (Spirit Israel) back to its Hebrew Roots... but not back to a Pharisaical Legalism that lead the natural born Jews away from Messiah to this very day.

You must also realize you are a son by adoption (grafted into the Olive Tree of Romans 11:1-36 which is "All Israel" in verse 26 and in Romans 9:6, also "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16) and stop seeing yourself as a Gentile. Gentiles (nations), worldly people, of this world, pagans are not believers in Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This was taught under the Old Covenant as far back as:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Thus a distinction between physical Israel and Spirit Israel...

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And there are two coterminous Torahs: Torah Moshe (the Law of Moses) and Torah Moshiakh (the Law of Christ).

1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NIV)

19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Paul was saying he is not under the Law of Moses but under the Law of Christ (Law of God). Think of it like the laws of gravity and of aerodynamics.

We should scrap the pagan holidays and rekindle the Hebrew holidays which all point to Jesus.

But do not try to model your faith and your righteousness and your calling after those who are antichristian.

[Leonard]

All you are required to keep is outlined in Acts 15.