Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[OneLight]

I am not going to continue to quote your posts. To do so will take up full pages as we have to continue to break up posts so not to over do the quote feature.

My apologies about stating it was Paul when it was Peter. Still, this does not change the fact that obedience is necessary to continue to mature in Christ, but baptism is not required for salvation. We are also to give up the flesh (which is a life ling work), but dying to ourselves is not required for salvation either.

To make it as simple as I can, scripture does not lie nor contradict itself. We read in Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved." and in Acts 16:31 "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”" Neither mention baptism. Are they true or not?

First, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and we know we need to change. We hear that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, so we accept Him as our Savior, our sins are forgiven and we become His as He seals us with His Spirit. His Spirit then begins the work of regeneration within us, creating in us a new heart of flesh and begins to impart the mind of Christ, creating a new creation within us, separate for our flesh. Through this process, we are drawn to be more like Christ. This is a process where we start to obey His leading and His word. .Batpism is part of His work within us, not part of what saved us. Salvation comes from Christ and Him alone, not anything we do.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Salvation is given once, not over and over and over and over according if we obey or not. Salvation is not a work of obedience, it is Grace from God toward us coupled with the faith in Christ He imparts in us. Someone who is saved and continues to struggle in Christ is just as saved as someone who is saved and continues to grow without too much trouble. Salvation happens once, regeneration continues until we die.

So, do you an conflict in Acts 2:21, Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8-10 in comparison with Mark 16:16? The first three do not require works for salvation, and obeying is a work; while your explanation of Mark 16:16 requires obedience, which is a work.

[OneLight]

I am not going to continue to quote your posts. To do so will take up full pages as we have to continue to break up posts so not to over do the quote feature.

My apologies about stating it was Paul when it was Peter. Still, this does not change the fact that obedience is necessary to continue to mature in Christ, but baptism is not required for salvation. We are also to give up the flesh (which is a life ling work), but dying to ourselves is not required for salvation either.

To make it as simple as I can, scripture does not lie nor contradict itself. We read in Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved." and in Acts 16:31 "So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”" Neither mention baptism. Are they true or not?

First, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and we know we need to change. We hear that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, so we accept Him as our Savior, our sins are forgiven and we become His as He seals us with His Spirit. His Spirit then begins the work of regeneration within us, creating in us a new heart of flesh and begins to impart the mind of Christ, creating a new creation within us, separate for our flesh. Through this process, we are drawn to be more like Christ. This is a process where we start to obey His leading and His word. .Batpism is part of His work within us, not part of what saved us. Salvation comes from Christ and Him alone, not anything we do.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Salvation is given once, not over and over and over and over according if we obey or not. Salvation is not a work of obedience, it is Grace from God toward us coupled with the faith in Christ He imparts in us. Someone who is saved and continues to struggle in Christ is just as saved as someone who is saved and continues to grow without too much trouble. Salvation happens once, regeneration continues until we die.

So, do you an conflict in Acts 2:21, Acts 16:31 and Ephesians 2:8-10 in comparison with Mark 16:16? The first three do not require works for salvation, and obeying is a work; while your explanation of Mark 16:16 requires obedience, which is a work.

Neither of those Scriptures you quoted contradicted anything I stated. I agree that God's grace saves you. I also agree that believing in God saves you. I also believe that doing God's will through faith saves you (See Matthew 7:21). I also agree that baptism saves you (Mark 16:16 and 1 Peter 3:20-21). So, if Person 1 says "We are saved by God's grace," and Person 2 says "we are saved by our faith in God", and Person 3 says "we are saved through baptism".......all three are actually correct. Why? Because God's grace, faith, and baptism all came from one source - God who is our salvation.

Baptism is not "human" works because it was ordered by God. It did not come from man. Anything ordered by God or comes from God is NOT "human" works. Anything that comes from man is "human" works. Human works cannot save you.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As you can see, we are not in contradition with the Holy Bible. It was never "human" good works that we are doing. It was the "good works" that God Himself prepared us to do......."divine" works that comes from Him. Baptism is not considered "human" good works, simply because it never came from man.

Jesus told the Pharisees this:

Matthew 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

The answer to Jesus' question is found in the Gospel of John:

John 1:33 And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

St. John the Baptist was not doing "human" good works as he was baptizing people. He was actually serving God, by doing "divine" works that came from God who prepared it for him.

This is the last time I am going to reply due to continuing going in circles.

We can do nothing to save ourselves, period. Nothing. Everything you mention that we do comes after salvation.

I am taking a break from trying to get you to see the difference between salvation and our works. I have other important responsibilities I need to attend to that will not allow me to run in circles when you refuse to even notice the difference. Maybe others will step up, or not.

God Bless,

Alan

[Jayyycuuup]

Difficulty's lol..... So this is towards your post to me Selene.......

I don't think so, your making your basis off of what Jesus told his disciples. If Christ meant what you are saying then He would have said he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. But that is not what it says, Christ only say's he who does not believe.....so your adding to what he said. Do you have anything else to add to your claim ?

I do, that states all you have to do is accept Christ and you shall live for eternity with our Lord !

John 5:35 And Jesus said to them "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

John 5:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --By saying that you have to be baptized in order to be saved would be holding your own interpretation above the words of Christ, He states that whoever COMES to Me, shall not be cast out i.e not be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Scripture never said "he who believeth not and is not baptize will be damned." Those words "is not baptized" is not found in the second part of the biblical verse. You are the only one who put it there. Baptism was never excluded because 1) it was God Himself who ordered baptism, 2) Christ Himself felt it was important to have Himself baptize despite that He had no sin, 3) Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize even after St. John the Baptist was beheaded by King Herod, and 4) Jesus told His Apostles that those who believed and are baptize will be saved. Christ did not have to put in "is not baptize" in the second part of what He said. If God feels that baptism was not necessary, He would not have gone through all the trouble to do all those 4 things I mentioned.

You just made my point. You are trying to say I was adding to scripture, but your highly wrong, my point being is that if Christ meant what you are saying then he would have said those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved, but it does not mean that,. nor say that. Concluding that all you have to be is saved in order to go to heaven.

Now you are trying to add to what I said, is baptism necessary ? Absolutely !! Is it a, if you dont you go to hell ? NO !! Your making your basis off of one verse that does not support your claim, I gave and still can give several more verses where Christ, and others say all you have to be is saved to enter the kingdom of God.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Christ never added "and is not baptized" in the second part of his sentence because ALL UNBELEVERS are NOT baptized. None of the unbelivers are baptized, so why should Christ add "and is not baptized" to the unbelivers. The first sentence applies only to the believers. Christ is saying, "Those who believe AND is baptized will be saved." So, those people who heard Christ's words and believed Him, but are NOT baptized......they paid attention and got themselves baptized.

During that time, there were many people who heard Christ's words. Some of those people are believers who are baptized (such as His Apostles), some are believers but NOT baptized (people who followed Him but failed to get baptized) and some are unbelievers (such as the pagan Roman soliders). So, when Christ said to this audience, "Those who believe and is baptized will be saved and those who believeth not will be damned"........the disciples who believed in HIm but didn't get baptized is going to get themselves baptized, while the Roman soldiers will just scoff at Him. Yes, there were a few Romans who heard Him. As you can see in the Bible, there was even a Roman soldier who approached Jesus asking to heal his servant, but he didn't allow Jesus to enter his home. He simply said, "Just say the word, and I know that my servant will be healed."

The Bible says that those who believed AND is baptised will be saved. Now, for those who believed and is NOT baptized, that is up to God to decide what to do with those people. That's His call. As for the unbelievers (who are not baptized at all), the Bible says that they are not saved.

AHA ! Praise you Lord !

Okay, now I can tell you Mathew 16:16 is before Christ was crucified so I think that you are correct, that they needed to be baptized and saved. But that was to the men before Christ was the bearer. You see we are washed in Christ's blood, the men before that we washed in water.... Still I think that we should be baptized, but since Christ bore the sin of the world, that is no longer a mandatory to be saved. (read Mathew 27:38-46, this is when he was crucified)

Hey Selene, Just making sure.....did you read what I posted ??

Hi Jacob,

Sorry, I somehow did miss your post. Jacob, my friend, even after Christ rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven the Apostles continued to baptize with water. It was God who ordered baptism with water and He never took it away. Christ continued to allow His disciples to baptize with water after St. John the Baptist was killed. And God allowed the Apostles to continue to baptize with water even after His Son Jesus ascended to Heaven.

Acts 8:36-38 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

This does not prove that baptism is mandatory for salvation, so I say again, Baptism is great and should be done, but it's not a if you don't your doomed to hell.

My brother, I never said that if a person is not baptized, they are doomed to Hell. Go back and read my post. I stated to you that those who believed and are not baptized, God will be the one to decide what to do with those people. It's His call.

Sorry, but according to the bible all those who believe and confess with their mouth WILL be saved. There is no disputing that, if you wish to try and condemn people, be my guest... That is not what I preach, nor what the bible says, all whom confess with their mouth Jesus as Lord and Savior, and that God raised Him from the dead WILL be saved. That is the bottom line, all whom come to Christ will go to Heaven, is it His call ? Absolutely, and his call is exactly what I stated.

[Jayyycuuup]

Sorry, but according to the bible all those who believe and confess with their mouth WILL be saved. There is no disputing that, if you wish to try and condemn people, be my guest... That is not what I preach, nor what the bible says, all whom confess with their mouth Jesus as Lord and Savior, and that God raised Him from the dead WILL be saved. That is the bottom line, all whom come to Christ will go to Heaven, is it His call ? Absolutely, and his call is exactly what I stated.

Really? Is that all you have to do.......just confess that He is the Lord? Well, I wonder then how you can explain this biblical verse?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Please don't play on words..... They did not believe in their hearts....Sorry that I left that out, but it is a crucial part of it, so in a way I am glad you brought it up. And Thank You Lord, funny how I was just discussing this with another member

[Sevenseas]

I agree...but some people believe that if you do NOT speak in tongues as evidence, then you are not truly saved.

At any rate, I really am not sure what hisdisciple is saying? So just wanted some clarification

Thanks

Really? Wow, I have never heard that. that has really blown my mind. I can't believe someone would say that. The thief on the cross never spoken in tongues and he went to heaven. I've always thought of the work of the Holy Spirit as 2 sepreate works, 1 at salvation one at recieving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Which is why Christ blew on the disciples and said recieve the Holy Spirit ( when they got saved ) , and then told them to tarry until they recieve power from on high. ) That Everyone who has been saved has the Holy Spirit within, and everyone who has the Baptism of the holy spirit has the Holy Spirit within and upon both. Which is why the bible talks about having the Holy Spirit upon and within , because there 2 differant things.The differance being both are saved, 1 is empowered for service 1 is not.

I can't imagine how that must make someone feel. Sevenseas I hope nobody ever made you feel like that. God bless

I kid you not. Not to worry...no one ever made me believe or feel that but it's interesting to learn of some of these rather strange

and non-Biblical interpretations.

I agree about the 2 separate events...but, some people disagree with that also...so...LOL...there yah go

As someone who fell for it I just have to comment. Imagine wanting desperately to be saved, repenting, being baptized in Jesus name and then NOT speaking in tongues and being told you aren't really saved. I spent months down front crying and praying every service for the evidence of tongues so I might be saved. I already had low self esteem and could barely believe God loved me and with no evidence of tongues it seemed to prove that God did not love me or want to save me. One Sunday night in desperation, I prayed and cried so hard and got so tongue tied it seemed I spoke in tongues and earned my salvation. Did I really speak in tongues? A few months later in a deep depression I left the church and God for 12 years. Yeah, those teachings happen unfortunately and it does damage to the believer wanting more than anything to be saved.

At this place in my walk, I do believe that baptism is important but not necessary for salvation.

Oh my ~ so sorry that happened to you! Yes, false teaching very much damages believers...I was at the receiving end of false teaching

also...although not about this matter....and it can hurt so very much! It seems God has a deaf ear and no one can help you...

God IS there ALL the time. We are warned in the NT over and over about deception and false teachers and yet those who are very

sincere in their desire to follow Christ are the ones who are taken in alot of the time BECAUSE of their sincerity... they tend to believe

that someone who calls themself a Christian IS a Christian...or has their best interests at heart when this is not really so

I spent a number of years away from God also because of what happened...I believed in God but could not wrap my head around

Christians...of course, I now know that Christians were not to blame...but the teaching and false teachers.

I'm glad you know now that a person cannot earn their salvation!

Hugs to you

[enoob57]

This is the last time I am going to reply due to continuing going in circles.

We can do nothing to save ourselves, period. Nothing. Everything you mention that we do comes after salvation.

I am taking a break from trying to get you to see the difference between salvation and our works. I have other important responsibilities I need to attend to that will not allow me to run in circles when you refuse to even notice the difference. Maybe others will step up, or not.

God Bless,

Alan

It was an interesting dialogue, Brother Alan. I also have other responsiblities as well. May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Selene, all things can be tested in Christ! Here is the scenario you purport as Scripture's teaching that you have the add to salvation by works!

You will die or be translated into Christ The Lords presence and the question will be does He know you? The pin point of focus 'IS' who 'IS' Savior?

At the time of the cross The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit were the only participants to providing salvation to mankind AND by the bloody pleading

of The Son The only Way was directly upon Them! Now as this 'IS' then how is it now you are added to that beginning as a necessity? What I do now

in Him as to works 'IS' the reality of salvation not requirement to be added to the salvation for salvation... perhaps the great seal of His Word will rightly

divide the understanding -> if you take away from His Word =you will be removed from Him; if you add to His Word you will sufferer plagues; if you do neither

you will have the truth as God has given and it will have It's perfect work within you for His Glory... Love, Steven

[His_disciple3]

The Scripture in the Gospel of John when Jesus said, "unless you are born of water and spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God." The Church interprets that scripture as baptism. Christ, who did not need to be baptize was baptized in the Jordan River with "water and spirit." That is the baptism that we follow.....the baptism of Christ.

When we are born into this world, we are born of water, if you consider the beginning of birth. To be born of the Spirit, one must accept Christ and become a new creation by the means of the Holy Spirit.

There is a reason why Christ had St. John baptize Him despite that He didn't have any sins. Baptism is not just about the forgiveness of sins. In the Holy Bible, St. Paul says that baptism replaced circumcision (see the scripture below). In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised were called :God's chosen people" Circumcision was the sign showing God's chosen people.

In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and baptism became the sign showing that we are" God's Family." That is why when Catholics baptize their infants, it is to include them as members of God's family. At Christ's baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, God's voice was heard saying, "this is my Son, whom I am well pleased". It is the same in our baptism....a baptism of water and spirit and God declaring "this is my son/daughter" We are the sons and daughters of God born of water and spirit....buried with the same baptism as Christ's own baptism at the Jordan River.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This circumcision made without hands is the sacrament of baptism. The circumcision of Christ that St. Paul speaks of is the sacrament of baptism.

well if you are right and baptism did replace circumcision, then you have to be aware that scriptures says that circumcision is nothing with Christ, if you are circumcision or not is the same to Christ, so then the same wouls apply to baptism. and if baptism is the same as circumcision, why would Christ get baptized seeing that he was already circumcised Edited August 26, 2012 by His_disciple3

[His_disciple3]

The Scripture in the Gospel of John when Jesus said, "unless you are born of water and spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God." The Church interprets that scripture as baptism. Christ, who did not need to be baptize was baptized in the Jordan River with "water and spirit." That is the baptism that we follow.....the baptism of Christ.

When we are born into this world, we are born of water, if you consider the beginning of birth. To be born of the Spirit, one must accept Christ and become a new creation by the means of the Holy Spirit.

There is a reason why Christ had St. John baptize Him despite that He didn't have any sins. Baptism is not just about the forgiveness of sins. In the Holy Bible, St. Paul says that baptism replaced circumcision (see the scripture below). In the Old Testament, those who were circumcised were called :God's chosen people" Circumcision was the sign showing God's chosen people.

In the New Testament, baptism replaced circumcision, and baptism became the sign showing that we are" God's Family." That is why when Catholics baptize their infants, it is to include them as members of God's family. At Christ's baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, God's voice was heard saying, "this is my Son, whom I am well pleased". It is the same in our baptism....a baptism of water and spirit and God declaring "this is my son/daughter" We are the sons and daughters of God born of water and spirit....buried with the same baptism as Christ's own baptism at the Jordan River.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This circumcision made without hands is the sacrament of baptism. The circumcision of Christ that St. Paul speaks of is the sacrament of baptism.

well if you are right and baptism did replace circumcision, then you have to be aware that scriptures says that circumcision is nothing with Christ, if you are circumcision or not is the same to Christ, so then the same wouls apply to baptism. and if baptism is the same as circumcision, why would Christ get baptized seeing that he was already circumcised

Circumcision was replaced by baptism. Baptism was not replaced by anything.

In the Old Testament, circumcision was a covenant and a sign between God and the people of Israel. This sign was to show that the Israelites were God's chosen people. Now, if a Hebrew man does not want to circumcise himself and his male child, what happens to them? It's very simple......they are not part of God's chosen people.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Since baptism now replaced circumcision according to St. Paul....what does that mean to Christians? In the New Testament, baptism is a sign between God and His Church (God's Family) It is a sign showing that we are members of God's family. We are NOT to follow the baptism of John because John's baptism is only of water (the forgiveness of sins). We are to follow the baptism of Jesus (a baptism of water and spirit). Christ's baptism is one of regeneration.....of being born again.....of being a Son of God.....(in our case an adopted son of God) So, what happens if a person does not want to undergo baptism? It's very simple......he's not a part of God's family.

yeah but you are forgetting that John the Baptist and Jesus Christ preached, That john merely baptized with Water, and that Jesus was going to baptized with Spirit so your baptism did get replaced. and scripture proves this with we are all baptized of the same Spirit, not water. Paul also confirmed this in Acts 19 when he baptised twelve people, that had already received the baptism of john. you want to bite into water baptism replaces circumcision, but over look that something else replaced water baptism. you want your priest or preacher to baptize you for salvation. or Jesus Christ baptize you with Spirit and fire for salvation? I will take the latter, myself

[Sevenseas]

What has this have to do with baptism? This thread is about baptism. You are off-topic.

It has everything to do with baptism. If you believe your pope, then you consider Protestant Christians to be simply a sect

and not saved unless they convert to Catholicism

Further, itis also a Catholic belief that if an infant is not baptized, the also go to hell.

I find that very strange that the teaching of your church demands infant baptism as an infant cannot

even make the decision for Christ.

Baptism, is for a person who has repented and wishes to follow Christ.

To say otherwise, distorts and completely ignores Scripture.

The website that you got your information has nothing to do with baptism. In the first place, we never teach that unbaptized infants go to Hell. The thing about that website that you got your information from is NOT EVEN ROMAN CATHOLIC. You should have looked at the HOMEPAGE first before you made this false accusation against the Roman Catholic Church. If you had done your homework correctly by going to their homepage, you would have found that this group of people stood against the Vatican!!! That alone should have told you something.

This group is the SSPX that the late Pope John Paul II excommunicated. They disobeyed the Pope, opposed Vatican II, and preached against the TRUE teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. As I said, If you had done your homework correctly by going to their homepage, you would have known that this group stood against the Vatican. And the Vatican IS the Roman Catholic Church.

The SSPX is the one who preached that all people INCLUDING ROMAN CATHOLICS will go to Hell. The only ones saved are the members of the SSPX. Below is the weblink of their homepage, which YOU FAILED to click on. Notice in their homepage that they are calling Vatican II an apostacy and heresy! What does tell you??

http://onetruecathol...h.com/index.php

No where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church did it say that "unbaptized" infants will go to Hell.....and I know because I read the catechism. The SSPX and their founder were excommunicated for going against the teachings of the Vatican. So, they can call themsevles "one true Catholic Church" all they want. The fact that they stand against the Vatican shows their true colors. They are NOT the one true Roman Catholic Church. They are NOT Roman Catholics, and they do NOT follow the Vatican.

You falsely accused Roman Catholics of teaching that unbaptized babies will go to Hell when that is not even in our Catechisms. So, what do you have to say for yourself now?? You made a false accusation against over one billion people. SHAME ON YOU!!

Selene, I have not falsely accused anyone. All a person has to do is google or whatever search engine they use, and they will find literally

thousands of sites that will confirm everything that I have said.

All sources I quote with regards to any topic...not just Catholicism...are able to be verified and I neither exaggerate or post false information

I am sorry that we cannot discuss things in a quiet manner and that I what I posted upsets you so much.

However, I take exception to being called a liar. I do not lie...I would fear God before you Selene, and I do not lie.

I would simply ask again that you try and discuss quietly . Thanks

[OneLight]

Closed to clean the mess.