I. Legalism: Defined

[GoldenEagle]

"Legalism can also be described as false Christianity because that is essentially what it is. It uses Christian language and biblical terms. It sounds evangelical. It loves to use phrases like "evangelism," "fundamentalism," "biblical literalism," and such. It sounds Christian, and looks Christian, but it is emphatically not true Christianity. It as a spurious fake, an imitation Christianity, an empty, hollow counterfeit of the real thing. It is a burdensome drag upon the spiritual life that creates a sense of bondage and guilt. It is a sickening, nauseating fraud in the eyes of others. God describes it in the Scriptures as a stench in his nostrils. That is what legality really is." - Ray C Stedman

Thoughts?

[Steve_S]

This one seems to have been going on for a while. I'm going to simply state that the vast majority of the time you hear people with a legalistic slant towards their doctrine talk it's almost always about what "I," "We," "Us," "They" need to do. In other words I see a ton of "I need to stop sinning, you need to stop sinning, we need to stop sinning, they need to stop sinning" etc. Humanity is incapable of righteousness. In my general experience the application of legalistic ideals from the top down in any Christian organization is almost always being used as a mechanism of control rather than a mechanism of personal and collective betterment. The bare fact of the matter is that every single one of us sins (1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.) and if we would focus more on drawing near to God and less over arguing who is the bigger sinner (which is exactly what legalism leads to in virtually every single case) then the natural outflow of that relationship is going to alter sinful behavior. If a human cannot sanctify himself then how can a human contend with his own nature? We need God for both.

[Guest ninhao]

"Legalism can also be described as false Christianity because that is essentially what it is. It uses Christian language and biblical terms. It sounds evangelical. It loves to use phrases like "evangelism," "fundamentalism," "biblical literalism," and such. It sounds Christian, and looks Christian, but it is emphatically not true Christianity. It as a spurious fake, an imitation Christianity, an empty, hollow counterfeit of the real thing. It is a burdensome drag upon the spiritual life that creates a sense of bondage and guilt. It is a sickening, nauseating fraud in the eyes of others. God describes it in the Scriptures as a stench in his nostrils. That is what legality really is." - Ray C Stedman

Thoughts?

I assume Mr Stedman is referring to Isaiah 65 here. ( He may use the NLT )

Isa 65:5 NLT Yet they say to each other, 'Don't come too close or you will defile me! I am holier than you!' These people are a stench in My nostrils, an acrid smell that never goes away.

Isa 65:5 KJV Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

It seems in this chapter that God is reprimanding the Israelites for practicing pagan rituals like idol worship etc. These particular Israelites followed pagan customs and were very proud of this considering themselves " holier than thou ".

Isa 65:2-4 KJV I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; (3) A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; (4) Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

I see this chapter is rebuking particular Israelites for sinning in heathen ways and this is the "smoke/stench" in God's nose.

If Mr Stedman is indeed using this chapter in reference to Christians being legalistic by stringent non sinning or law keeping then I think he is using the chapter incorrectly.

Maybe another place in the bible is where this stench is can you show me?

[GoldenEagle]

If Mr Stedman is indeed using this chapter in reference to Christians being legalistic by stringent non sinning or law keeping then I think he is using the chapter incorrectly.

The passage in context is…

The Righteousness of God’s Judgment

Is. 65:1-5 NKJV

¹ “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;

I was found by those who did not seek Me.

I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’

To a nation that was not called by My name.

² I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,

Who walk in a way that is not good,

According to their own thoughts;

³ A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;

Who sacrifice in gardens,

And burn incense on altars of brick;

⁴ Who sit among the graves,

And spend the night in the tombs;

Who eat swine’s flesh,

And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

⁵ Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,

Do not come near me,

For I am holier than you!’

These are smoke in My nostrils,

A fire that burns all the day.

Smoke is not pleasant. It has a stench that causes people to suffocate and has adverse side effects such as bronchitis, increase risk of lung/heart disease, etc. Smoke is even linked to premature death in people with those conditions. See: http://airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=smoke.page1

Basically I agree in this passage in Isaiah the people were engaging in idolatry. They were seeking after false gods by sacrificing in gardens and burning incense to the same. (vs. 3) The Israelites thought they could save themselves with a formula when God was offering them a relationship with Him. Does this not apply to us as Christians today? The same is true today for “super” Christians who believe that God’s grace can be earned or that some formula will make them holier than other Christians.

I respectfully disagree that Mr. Stedman is using this passage incorrectly.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

This one seems to have been going on for a while. I'm going to simply state that the vast majority of the time you hear people with a legalistic slant towards their doctrine talk it's almost always about what "I," "We," "Us," "They" need to do. In other words I see a ton of "I need to stop sinning, you need to stop sinning, we need to stop sinning, they need to stop sinning" etc. Humanity is incapable of righteousness. In my general experience the application of legalistic ideals from the top down in any Christian organization is almost always being used as a mechanism of control rather than a mechanism of personal and collective betterment. The bare fact of the matter is that every single one of us sins (1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.) and if we would focus more on drawing near to God and less over arguing who is the bigger sinner (which is exactly what legalism leads to in virtually every single case) then the natural outflow of that relationship is going to alter sinful behavior. If a human cannot sanctify himself then how can a human contend with his own nature? We need God for both.

I agree Steve great comments and question.

[Guest shiloh357]

One of the biggest areas of legalism I see happening in churches today is the notion that you cannot go to heaven with any unconfessed sins. According to some, if there are any sins you have never confessed, you will go to hell when you die, Christian or not.

Has anyone ever noticed that Paul NEVER mentions confession of sin to God? It is found in only one place and that is I John chapter one. And in that place it is mentioned ONLY within the context of cleansing of your conscinece, not for the sake of going to heaven. There is not one warning in the NT that unconfessed sin will send a person to hell.

Legalism is the view that anything you do or don't do will affect your standing before God and thus cause you to lose your salvation and go to hell. It is part of a works-based system of righteousness. If you feel you have to remember and confess every sin, or end up in hell, if you feel that your salvation is conditional upon that, then you are invovled in legalism, pure and simple.

[Sevenseas]

Checked out the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and they define 3 forms that legalism can take. The following, in italics, is the

third segment in that definition and I think it is a good one.

Link to their site: http://carm.org/what-is-legalism

The last kind of legalism, where a Christian keeps certain laws and regards other Christians who do not keep his level of holiness with contempt, is a frequent problem in the church. Now, we want to make it clear that all Christians are to abstain from fornication, adultery, pornography, lying, stealing, etc. Christians do have a right to judge the spirituality of other Christians in these areas where the Bible clearly speaks. But, in the debatable areas we need to be more careful, and this is where legalism is more difficult to define. Rom. 14:1-12 says that we are not to judge our brothers on debatable issues. One person may eat certain kinds of foods where another would not. One person might worship on a particular day where another might not. We are told to let each person be convinced in his own mind (Rom. 14:5). As long as our freedom does not violate the Scriptures, then everything should be okay.

The underlined above certainly agrees with Paul's teaching regarding our freedom in Christ

I think the subject really needs defining as so many people already worry about their salvation for one reason or another that it can lead

to some staying away from church and fellowship in Christ, a nagging feeling of unworthiness (which is not uncommon, not realizing that

the only work acceptable to God is the work Christ has accomplished on our behalf. On that note, any work we do, is ONLY acceptable

because of Christ's sacrifice as all our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight...Isaiah 64:6)

Objections to defining legalism may occur due to the person's own investment in that very form

Legalism follows form for the sake of visible results of one's holiness. The entire exercise is fruitless as we do not come before God

through any efforts we have made or any rules we have followed.

Remember the High Priest in the OT? Once a year ONCE A YEAR!!! he went into the Holy of Holies...we, now can come before that

seat EVERY SINGLE DAY if we are in Christ because of what HE has done and not our own merit

DISCLAIMER: There is no intended insult or jibe or remarks in this post to anyone on this board

Thanks for understanding that. More than willing to discuss any of the above but ONLY without name calling, insult,

or put downs of any kind. Thanks for understanding. I really do very much enjoy discussing God's word and I realize

we are not all yet made perfect (yes including me haha) and I do realize I may touch a nerve with the above but

again, I am not trying to hurt...only arrive at truth.

[GoldenEagle]

Legalism is the view that anything you do or don't do will affect your standing before God and thus cause you to lose your salvation and go to hell. It is part of a works-based system of righteousness. If you feel you have to remember and confess every sin, or end up in hell, if you feel that your salvation is conditional upon that, then you are invovled in legalism, pure and simple.

I agree Shiloh this is troubling.

[GoldenEagle]

Checked out the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and they define 3 forms that legalism can take. The following, in italics, is the

third segment in that definition and I think it is a good one.

Link to their site: http://carm.org/what-is-legalism

The last kind of legalism, where a Christian keeps certain laws and regards other Christians who do not keep his level of holiness with contempt, is a frequent problem in the church. Now, we want to make it clear that all Christians are to abstain from fornication, adultery, pornography, lying, stealing, etc. Christians do have a right to judge the spirituality of other Christians in these areas where the Bible clearly speaks. But, in the debatable areas we need to be more careful, and this is where legalism is more difficult to define. Rom. 14:1-12 says that we are not to judge our brothers on debatable issues. One person may eat certain kinds of foods where another would not. One person might worship on a particular day where another might not. We are told to let each person be convinced in his own mind (Rom. 14:5). As long as our freedom does not violate the Scriptures, then everything should be okay.

The underlined above certainly agrees with Paul's teaching regarding our freedom in Christ

I think the subject really needs defining as so many people already worry about their salvation for one reason or another that it can lead

to some staying away from church and fellowship in Christ, a nagging feeling of unworthiness (which is not uncommon, not realizing that

the only work acceptable to God is the work Christ has accomplished on our behalf. On that note, any work we do, is ONLY acceptable

because of Christ's sacrifice as all our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight...Isaiah 64:6)

Objections to defining legalism may occur due to the person's own investment in that very form

Legalism follows form for the sake of visible results of one's holiness. The entire exercise is fruitless as we do not come before God

through any efforts we have made or any rules we have followed.

Remember the High Priest in the OT? Once a year ONCE A YEAR!!! he went into the Holy of Holies...we, now can come before that

seat EVERY SINGLE DAY if we are in Christ because of what HE has done and not our own merit

DISCLAIMER: There is no intended insult or jibe or remarks in this post to anyone on this board

Thanks for understanding that. More than willing to discuss any of the above but ONLY without name calling, insult,

or put downs of any kind. Thanks for understanding. I really do very much enjoy discussing God's word and I realize

we are not all yet made perfect (yes including me haha) and I do realize I may touch a nerve with the above but

again, I am not trying to hurt...only arrive at truth.

Great thoughts and perspectives sevenseas.

[nebula]

that I believe relates to the topic.

In this context, legalists are focused on the weeds.