MATTHEW 5:48

OneLight · January 6, 2013

I won't answer the poll for a few reasons, but that really does not matter. Scripture tells us that we can overcome the world if we have enough faith in Him. Yet, it also tells us that we are in constant battle with our flesh. WE also know that we are all different, even from one minute to the next. We also have to take into consideration how much sin is before our eyes every day, and through our ears also, compared to the times scripture was penned.

Do I think it is possible, perhaps it is if one could meditate completely on Jesus 24/7.

Personally, I see this as a never ending debate.

A couple good points you brought up. One -- we are all different. Could it not be, due to being different with different interest, and this is not even to get into different levels of growth but just every one being made different, that if there were to people that considered themselves perfect, they would never consider the other perfect?

Concerning the times, however, Lot, Noah, Paul and many many more knew what living holy in the midst of sin was all about so I guess in my own prospective I could not use that as a reason for sin.

You are most likely right in regards to this topic, like many others, could go on forever, but hopefully, for those with listening ears and an open heart, some conclusions can be made. I feel it is important to try to fully understand as much as possible as so we can answer when needed and be a help to our brethren and sisters when needed.

I don't think anyone is using it as a reason to sin, but let me point out what I meant. They did not have TV's, DVDs, Movies, CDs, books, magazines, bill boards, or the computer where they can be just a click away from any sin they can think of. They just had the reality of the surrounding people. There is a huge difference between their lifestyle and ours today.

enoob57 · January 7, 2013

My only accuser has been thrown out of court as my Advocate has argued my case with His Father the Judge...

gdemoss · January 7, 2013

The topic is deeper than the ocean and wider than the sea. Single scriptures should be able to be validated by the complete context within which they fall. At a minimum one should probably present a good selection of scripture rather than a single verse when working toward understanding what is being said.

Eph 5:8 ¶ For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Eph 5:15 ¶ See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

The proof is in the doing and not in the dissecting. Follow the instructions given in the bible and see what kind of results that you come up with. When it comes to prophesying, and the bible is nothing but prophesying, we are told to prove all things. The guarentee of the Ephesians text is that light reveals darkness and that darkness needs to be reproved and not fellowshiped with. An example of this is Noah.

Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah, who was a preacher of righteousness, condemned the world simply by being the light of it through obeying the command of God. Noah spent 100 years building a boat in a place where it did not rain that was big enough to fit the animals and his family on. Of course we are not told exactly how many people asked what you building or why? We are told that '8 souls were saved by water' and that the world was 'filled with violence'. Bet he stood out like a sore thumb being not only a preacher of righteousness but a doer of the work. Had God not sealed him up in the boat in time, the darkness that his actions condemned would probably have snuffed out his little family.

How many of us have went from walking in complete darkness as servants of sin without Christ unto coming to know Christ and have begun the process of sanctification and are walking in a better state with less darkness and more light than before? How many of us have been persecuted when this light we now walk in shines in the same room as those who still walk in darkness?

Are we now somehow safe from persecution for living after godliness when among believers only? Even the Lord himself was betrayed the same night he took bread. There are many warnings for us to heed against evil workers and such within the church alone.

So we come to the open forum and ask: Can we really be like Jesus all the time? Can we reach Entire Sanctification where Sin no more has dominion over us or gets one over on us? Please understand that due to an overwhelming range of personal definitions used for words and such the like there are going to be various views of the words we write to one another even. And trust me, this is one question that Satan does not want an answer to be given that will in any way, shape or form take away his dominion over your mind and actions. He is not stupid by any means. He wants us to bite and devour one another, nailing each other to our cross we bear.

My own personal experience with walking with God is that I was one of the lowest of the low when it came to being a sinner. I not only was evil but enjoyed being such. But God, who is rich in mercy, thought it good to lead me to a place of repentance from sin to faith in him rather than sin. My transformation from darkness to light was rapid. I began to immediately shed unwanted sin in my life that was illuminated to me as I read through the bible for the first time. The first thing I achieved victory over through God was alcohol and drugs. Cigarettes followed later, for me they were sin. Over time as I became aware of the sin in my life I turned to Christ to understand how to get victory through him over them. For a long while I thought the problem was in the objects of my desire and not my desire itself but later I learned that the problem was one that was within and not without.

The root of the problem we all face with this question posed is that if Christ can give us victory over a single sin, why can we not then have complete dominion over all sin though sin be in the body we now reside in? I know one thing is for sure. If I believe that I can't ever do that then it will be a self fulfilled prophecy. If I believe that I can but it isn't the truth then I will face a certain amount of disappointment though I am determined to have complete victory over sin in my life always. But if I believe I can based upon what is seen in scripture and it turns out to be true then I face the inevitable fact that those, even those in the church who believe, who are walking in darkness will have a desire to destroy that which they deem to be error. How do I know this?

Jhn 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

So what is a man to do? Present arguments by mouth that seek to lead others to believe that we can be like Jesus everyday from the moment of waking until our head hits the pillow again? I don't think that fits the Ephesians text very well if there is truth to it.

Eph 5:15 ¶ See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

If you believe that you can be as he is always without fail then I suggest:

Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

I'm afraid this topic is a seeing is believing kinda thing and of those who see there will be those who believe, while others who see will not believe but know differently as they who accused our Lord. Peace be with you in your ultimate conclusion. May the Lord illuminate the understanding of those whom haven't yet understood.

franciskelsey · January 8, 2013

Thank you Gary for your post. There is certainly often more than one way to see scripture.

Here, I want to present, perhaps, a slightly variant view.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< 1 John 3 >>

New International Version 1984

18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

So what does this mean? He states we know Jesus lives in us because the Holy Spirit that Jesus gave us reveals this to us. He states that if our heart does not condemn us we have confidence before God. In stating this, he says we can ask what we will and receive because we are obeying Gods commandments. Those who obey His commandments live in Him, and He in them.

Let me rephrase. John writes if our hearts do not condemn us when we have the Holy Spirit guiding our lives we are obeying His commandments! Now this does not take away bible reading and such, and does not take away our learning from His word, but being that the Holy Spirit guides us through the word and speaks to us through it, and many other things, is not obeying Gods commandments obeying the very Holy Spirit that lives inside of us? Living a life with a heart toward God and in a way as so our heart, guided by the Holy Spirit, does not condemn us?

That would seem to fit Revelation 12:17

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus

Another verse that sticks out to me, or calls me, is

<< Ephesians 1:4-6

New International Version 1984

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he^c predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

We know He foreknew those that would chose to love Him. We also know He knows and knew in advance all who would be holy and blameless in His sight. That is, He knew of those that would believe in His name and follow after Him and His ways.

As Christians, we are always being conformed more and more, closer and closer, to the image of Jesus Christ our Lord.

And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. (or practices, lives out what is right)

In these passages, it never seems to state we will stop growing, or stop learning, at some point while in this body. I also have not known anyone that truly could claim this.

Thirdly, we know, from what the bible tells us, all have sin, or, sin nature.

"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?

Job 25:4-6 << Job 25 >>

New International Version 1984

4How then can a man be righteous before God?

How can one born of woman be pure?

5If even the moon is not bright

and the stars are not pure in his eyes,

6how much less man, who is but a maggot—

a son of man, who is only a worm!”

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

( this seems to indicate He lives, forever, to forgive us of our sins and to make us Holy before the Father consistently. Not that we live sinful lives, per say, but still have our sinful nature that cannot be accepted by the Father apart from His Son )

We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

Though this last one can be debated as to who it was directed, I am still including it.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 Kings 8:46 "When they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near;

Here it does seem our sin nature does stay with us, though granted, we, through the Holy Spirit, must learn to gain control over this nature, through miracles of Jesus Christ. None the less, a sinless being? A human that has no sin? How can this be? Yes, indeed, our sins are washed away. Yes, indeed, we live live pure before the Lord. But does this mean we have no more imperfections? Does it mean we no longer fight on occasion to read the bible, or obey the Holy Spirit?

In my next post, which I will have out, hopefully shortly, I want to go through some people in the bible that were called perfect or said to have obeyed Gods commands, and show that the word perfect, or obeying Gods commands, most certainly did not mean perfect. My intent, even as I continue to learn, as to show it is a matter of our heart toward Christ Jesus and of His Holy Spirit as to us being called obedient or perfect, versing rebellious.

I will have more shortly and will finish my thoughts in the next post.

chloe_fantastic · January 8, 2013

Very good topic, very thought provoking, all of these answers have me looking at this subject with new perspectives to consider.

franciskelsey · January 8, 2013

Examples of -- perfection?

not in order -- my imperfection. LOL

I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes.

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.

==============================================

He held fast to the LORD and did not cease to follow him; he kept the commands the LORD had given Moses.

Then Hezekiah repented of the pride of his heart, as did the people of Jerusalem; therefore the LORD's wrath did not come upon them during the days of Hezekiah.

=========================================================================

but sought the God of his father and followed his commands rather than the practices of Israel.

<< 2 Chronicles 19 >>

New International Version 1984

2Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet him and said to the king, “Should you help the wicked and love^a those who hate the Lord? Because of this, the wrath of the Lord is upon you. 3There is, however, some good in you, for you have rid the land of the Asherah poles and have set your heart on seeking God.”

Eliezer son of Dodavahu of Mareshah prophesied against Jehoshaphat, saying, "Because you have made an alliance with Ahaziah, the LORD will destroy what you have made." The ships were wrecked and were not able to set sail to trade.

=============================================================================================

I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

==================================================================================

<< Luke 1 >>

New International Version 1984

The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold

5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.

18Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.”

19The angel answered, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time.”

=============================================================================

This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

=========================================================================================

Although he did not remove the high places, Asa's heart was fully committed to the LORD all his life.

=============================================================================================

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

==================================================================================

because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled; yet he liked to listen to him.

2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, “Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?”

================================================================================

My intent is hardly to pick on the likes of John the Baptist and Noah which I am not worthy to compare, but I feel this needed to be done to show the proper usage of words such as perfect and righteous, blameless and holy, and obeying the commandments of our God. We all fall short of the glory of God.

I want to end with a passage from perhaps the most beloved Christian of the new Testament.

<< Romans 7 >>

New International Version 1984

An Illustration From Marriage

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,^a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Struggling With Sin

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”^b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.^c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul makes clear here he continually had a struggle with sin and in regards to our sinful nature, a slave to the law of sin.

<< Matthew 22 >>

New International Version 1984

37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’^b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I am not sure about all of you, but these two commandments by themselves seem to, without the very blood of Christ, keep me far from perfection. I wish I could say every thought of my mind was about doing His will, or my heart never craved anything other than Christ Jesus, or my inner most soul sometimes did not have side ventures it wanted to go on.

When ever I become prideful, the Lord humbles me. Whenever I believe I am above another, the Lord shows me I am not. Are we doing our best to obey, follow, and learning to lean on the Holy Spirit to forever more become more like Him, Jesus Christ?

There is only One who I will compare myself to. Jesus Christ our Lord. Let us lean on Him, keeping pure hearts which do not condemn us. Let us always be in prayer and in the word, for God often uses the words in our heart to defeat the devil when temptations arise.

In the end, every one is entitled to believe as they will. My only hope is, we all always stay humble and right before our God Almighty, and always strive to be like Him, perfect in every way.

God bless

I would love to hear what any one might have to add, be it different or not.

gdemoss · January 8, 2013

Frank, a lot of the way we perceive scripture depends upon our spiritual condition. We can continue to look at things through the vantage point of one who absolutely cannot fathom being able to be righteous before God and every single passage that seems to support our cause will stand out and back up our position. Or we can believe that nothing is impossible with God and that he can and will cause us to stand before him righteously through the power of his Word and his Spirit though sin be in our mortal flesh.

Once you learn what God meant when he said that the law was made for an unrighteous man, then you have hope of understanding what it means to be righteous before God. Then and only then will you not condemn the innocent as Jesus tried to teach of David.

franciskelsey · January 10, 2013

I have decided to comment at least one more time as I was thinking about the belief of being able to live a perfect life, when the word perfect is implied to mean never falling short of the glory of God, or never having a thought or action that is not all it can be toward Jesus, that is, never having any unrighteous found, or any imperfections found, in a Christians life and walk with Christ.

Many who believe we can reach this state in our walk with God, believe without this way of thinking we at the get go lose all hope, lose all ambition, and lose all motivation to be like Christ Jesus as in this way of thinking we can never achieve such a feat. Also it is believed that this way of thinking allows Christians to walk any way they will and not worrying about the commands of God because we will never obey them all in perfection any way.

Is this view true? Perhaps, for those who are looking for an excuse to not obey Jesus or to remain in His love it could be.

I got to thinking though. A boxer. Does he train to be a better boxer in the hopes of being at a state where he can never be defeated or never misses a punch or the opportunity to do so? Does his hope rely on a perfected state of boxing in regards to winning every fight and and never messing up? How about a skilled worker, like a nurse or construction worker? Do they get better at what they do because they have the hopes of being perfect in their job and the belief they will never mess up? If not, do they really have a reason to try to be better?

My nephew loves video games. Most kids do. Sometimes it takes him a while to become good at one he is playing. In what seems to be no time though, he is whipping my butt in almost every game we play. You see, he loves video games. His aim as to be as good at that video game as he can possibly be. Even though their are certain games where he is very good, he knows he will always make mistakes and will never play a "perfect" game.

When we become Christians, we fall more and more in love with Jesus Christ. Not because of our doings, but His love He has toward and for us. Our aim is to become more like Jesus Christ everyday we live. We want to do this. Why? Because we have been born again and have been given a new heart. A heart that has an interest, a heart that has a love, a heart that wants to serve our Lord Jesus Christ better and better everyday and to become like Him more and more as we grow, just as a child wants to be just like his father (in good households) though knowing he will never be exactly like his father. The principle as he wants to follow after his fathers foot prints and wants to live his life as his father did.

The word perfect as we understand it here now is not the way in which it was meant to be or how it was understood in the bible times. Mature, or holy, or walking with God with a clear conscious and a clear heart as a follower who no longer looks to the world for joy and no longer is swayed by the wind to forsake Jesus, this is the way the word perfect was understood. This can be seen when reading everywhere the word is used.

We are to strive for perfection, and strive to when the prize, but let us not misunderstand the word perfection and in the way it was used in the bible. If we can not understand the word properly, we set ourselves up for a life of disappointment. We will never achieve perfection as we see it in our own eyes. How does Jesus view perfection? Those who come to Jesus are made perfected and are able to stand before God the Father. If when living our Christian life, we rebel against the Holy Spirit, and continue a life of such, we are certainly no longer considered perfect before the Father. Could anyone here live such a life where without Jesus Christ we could stand in front of the Father and say, "Here I am Lord, standing perfectly before you"? Job didn't. No one ever recorded in the bible has except through Christ Jesus.

So are we hopeless for not believing we can grow to live a life of never making a mistake again?

Not at all. We serve because we want to. We strive because it is now in our hearts. We thrive because Jesus takes us there. Our perfection rest in the Lord and the blood that He shed for us. Our maturity relies on obedience on what the Lord shows us and tells us. I never would want to think I was better than another Christian as I am saved by the same way, the same blood.

It is a relieve knowing we can have victory over our sins on this earth. It is a blessing to know we will be made perfect at the resurrection. It is perhaps, the grandest however, to know what the Father deems as perfect, as obedience, not perfection as some understand it. Who can stand perfected apart from the blood or by our own works. Our perfection is in His blood. Our perfection is in our growth. Our perfection is in our obedience. Our perfection is in standing before the Holy Lord with a clear and clean heart.

That, to me, is a God worth living (and dying) for my friends and family. Perhaps Paul would have been afraid to write Romans chapter seven if he believed any other way.

God bless you all

JohnD · January 10, 2013

The Lord has no misgivings about the limitation and weakness of human beings (even those of us filled with his Holy Spirit, as the choice to live by him is still ours).

But IMHO the Lord gives us such high goals knowing we will never actually achieve them yet at the same time in our stiving for the high goals we avoid all sorts of evil we would otherwise encounter or devize on our own.

Massorite · January 20, 2013

Everything that Jesus did and had is now availible to us. It is possible for a Christian to live a perfect life but because of the desires of the flesh it is highly unlikely.

So far only Jesus has been able to do that.

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MATTHEW 5:48

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