WHO ARE THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS

[Leonard]

Remember the word Revelation in the Greek original text is 'apocalypse' or 'unveiling.' I recently heard a Rabbi say that in the 1st century Palestinian Jewish community, the groom NEVER saw his betrothed without her veil on, until the end of the wedding ceremony. At that time the groom (say 'Shmuel') unveiled the face of his bride (say 'Miriam') for the first time. This was not called 'The Unveiling of Miriam' but rather 'The Unveiling--or "Revelation":--of Shmuel!' So when the book is read, perhaps the correct understanding is that the Book is a 'revelation' of the Bride of Jesus Christ!

Rather than conjecture about the future, let us read the Apocalypse as a word for us in the present tense. If we get ourselves in shape with Him, then there can be no fear of the future.

Twelve is a number in the Bible which is consistently involved in governance. These four and twenty, certainly represent full governance, and that might mean that 'self possession' and self control, as we are exhorted many times in the New Testament.

Perhaps most of the revelation refers to what is going on INTERNALLY in the believer's individual life, as well as the life of the whole Church.

[Littlelambseativy]

The 4 beasts are angels and they cannot sit on the thrones. They are always around the Father's throne.

The additional 12 (other than the disciples) may come out of the gentile people and that is why they are not identified.

[franciskelsey]

The 4 beasts are angels and they cannot sit on the thrones. They are always around the Father's throne.

The additional 12 (other than the disciples) may come out of the gentile people and that is why they are not identified.

Thank you for that. However, again, questions such as above, it does not explain, like, if the beast are angels and the elders are perhaps the church, why are the angels and church both singing the song of redemption, if in fact, that is the correct translation of text, which is one key idea used that the 24 represent the church. It also lacks answer as to why the elders and saints are often mentioned separately in the same passages. It also makes one ask the question, if chapter 4 is the saints, who is in chapter 20 on the thrones. Who related the message to John? The angel as he states in chapter 1 or an elder meaning one of the saints, which to me seems awkward. Anyhow, for me, this assumption leaves more questions than it leaves answers, more so with nothing more to really assume this except for chapter 5 when the KJV puts the beast (angels) and elders all singing the song of redemption together. I do however, appreciate your input.

Leonard, thank you for your comments. I certainly do agree the the book of Revelation can be and should be used for teaching for this present day as well. Perhaps sometimes when we put to much focus on the future of revelation we forsake what we can learn from it for today.

At least one half of the equation.

What part do you agree with and what part do you differ with and why is that my brother? Thanks

[He giveth more grace]

What part do you agree with and what part do you differ with and why is that my brother? Thanks

No, you misunderstood me, the other half of the equation is scripture concerning the other 12 elders, not that I disagreed with you, far be it.

[His_disciple3]

Thank you Joe for your time in looking the topic up. I kind of find it amusing how many that believe in a pre-trib rapture use questionable photo types as proof yet deny or try explaining away clear scripture. Anyhow, I guess that is for another thread. LOL I truly do appreciate your time. Perhaps the reason I am quite often unsatisfied with answers as I, like Thomas, always want clear and visible proof. God certainly has gave me more than enough to believe and to put my trust in Him over the years.

you know this is your thread, so seeing that you brought it up, I find it amazing not amuzing that you would tear down a brother/sister in Christ as to find belittlement through laughter at their way of seeing scriptures, seeing that when "we go up" is not a salvational or gospel issue. *** edited out personal insults *** I also find it amazing that no one has shared enough scripture with you to show two separate events in scriptures as of the taking up/ rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ, we Christians. so over looking the fact that maybe you have seen these scriptures before, and have just closed a blind eye of pride to them, let me share this with, you brother, please take note with these scriptures that the taking up/rapture of the saints is not a resurrection. this is where most folks get blinded from these being two separate events, I will paraphrase some scripture, such as Jesus said One will be left and another taken, see clearly if you understand the definition of resurrection is the raising of the dead or bringing up from the grave, this event Jesus is referring to; is taking up live people, and there is not even the first mention of any dead being raised, why for 1 thes, 4 clearly says during the taking up/rapure, the dead in Christ( not all the dead) were already raised at this point "then we which remain are taken up", and by this way of occurance this clearly can't be either the first or second/last resurrection spoken of from scriptures. also in 1 thes. 4 we can see that just the ones that are in Christ are raised."those that are asleep in Christ" the last day resurrection all the dead are raised. clearly two separate events, but let me show you from scriptures so there should be no doubt left, also one must clearly have some understanding of jewish ways and traditions to see some things clearly from scriptures, we can learn from Ester that in times past a future bride was set aside in the bride's chamber for weeks before the wedding and made over and perfumed and made ready for the marriage ceremony, so in order for the wedding to be ready, the bride would have already been separated, cleansed and purified for the Bridegroom. so now some will say that revelation in not in chronological, but when John writes and then this happened and then this happened these events are in chronological order, so here are the scriptures that you seek,

the Bride/the Church is there in Heaven :

Rev 19:6

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

then we have the First resurrection and please take note here who are raised the tribulation saints, who have refused the mark of the beast and been beheaded, so John says the wedding Is come( is here ) and then the tribulations saints are raised: this has to be even before the last day resurrection: Clearly. from scriptures :

Rev 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

side note here some preach, that the church comes back with Jesus but have you ever heard of a king taking His bride to the battlefield, it is His tribulation saints He brings back with Him. now we have gotten to your resurrection where you believe 1 Thes . 4 takes place , but again please note that all the dead( the dead) are raised not just those that are asleep in Christ as those in 1 Thes. 4

Rev 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I am not amuzed at you not be able to see two separate events, brother, but rather praying for you. and would ask your prayer for me as welll.

~~~~~~~

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Edited February 4, 2013 by OneLight
personal insults

[His_disciple3]

We know who 12 of them are. In talking to the 12 disciples Jesus said -

Matthew 19:28

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man

sit

s

on

his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also

sit

on

twelve

thrones

, judging the

twelve

tribes of Israel.

They are the 12 patriot's of Israel and 12 disciples of the Lord Jesus, 12+12=24.

You'll probably will be wanting scripture,huh, oh boy.

I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4.

<< Revelation 20 >>

King James Version

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this.

This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation.

This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new.

Revelation 5

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song?

(2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way?

http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this:

New International Version (©1984)

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song.

(3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God:

Revelation 6

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 7

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

(5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs.

Revelation 15

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels?

These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility.

God bless you all and thank you for reading and your responses.

you make it sound like a bad thing that saints becomes angels, when with scripture we should syrely believe this to be so, John fell at the feet of an angel, and the angel said that he was of John's brethren the prophets :

Rev 22:8

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[Littlelambseativy]

Rev.22:8

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How do you know that this person is an 'angel'? He says he is a 'prophet' not an angel! Angels cannot sing the song of the redeemed for they have never needed to be washed in the blood of the Lamb our Saviour, Jesus. Yes there are songs that all in heaven sing but only the redeemed have a song that they sing.

To say that a human who dies becomes an angel is false theology.

[He giveth more grace]

Rev.22:8

...of thy brethren the prophets...

Right, Angels are not our brothers, they serve us, under God.

[Joshua-777]

We know who 12 of them are. In talking to the 12 disciples Jesus said -

Matthew 19:28

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man

sit

s

on

his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also

sit

on

twelve

thrones

, judging the

twelve

tribes of Israel.

But, it was John who saw the 24 elders in heaven. He didn't see himself on the thrones or the rest of his buddies on the thrones. So how could he be sitting on the thrones around Daddy when he is standing looking at 24 elders on the thrones?

We won't know until we see them, but what if they have always been, or come from an ancient time we have no clue of?

Also, when the disciples sit on the 12 thrones, they are going to be judging the twelve tribes of Israel with Jesus. In the Millenial Kingdom, Jesus is going to reign a thousand years and judge/rule over Israel and the nations from Zion/Israel. So could the twelve thrones be the restoration of Isreal when Jesus comes back and not the heavenly throne room?

[Littlelambseativy]

Those are rewards that are to given after the G W T J. He perhaps saw in shadow the ones who were seated on the thrones because those rewards have not yet been awarded. That is not for us to know.