Christians and God's Wrath

[Sevenseas]

I am a little disturbed over something I am reading in some threads recently. It is this: it seems to be the conviction of some believers, and yes they are believers, that Christians endure

God's WRATH. I'm not talking about the tribulation and there are enough threads on that already.

I am talking about God's wrath on Christians who disobey or sin or whatever.

Do Christians endure or suffer God's wrath? Scripture please to flesh out your response.

I think this could be a good discussion because, while we should fear God, do we fear Him for His anger and wrath?

[He giveth more grace]

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ..." 1 Thess 5:9

Those who preach that we are going through the trib is xxxxxful, but I cannot figure out to what end (purpose) they wish to believe that.

[BlessedByTheBest]

hi seven,

this is what came to mind for me:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

so i guess the question that i am trying to raise is.. do we accept God's disciplining of His sons and daughters as, wrath?

or..do we consider God removing His hedge of protection from us, allowing the enemy to buffet us, the result of His anger towards His children? or is it ultimately Love?

Job 6:2 Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!

Job 6:3 For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

God's Wrath, or Fatherly Love? love that molds us like clay in the Potters hands...

i guess it all depends on perspective.

love to you.

[Sevenseas]

Thanks both of you!

This is perfect He giveth more Grace "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ..." 1 Thess 5:9

These are two thoughtful questions and let's include them in the discussion if we can:

so i guess the question that i am trying to raise is.. do we accept God's disciplining of His sons and daughters as, wrath?

Is wrath the same as discipline? Annoying when someone answers with another question but I like to provoke thought....

My answer, (short form) is no.

wrath

[rath, rahth or, esp. British, rawth]

noun

1.

strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.

2.

vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.

Discipline: as a noun

1

:

punishment

2

obsolete

:

instruction

3

:

a field of study

4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mentalfaculties or moral character

5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order

b

:

orderly or

prescribed

conduct or pattern of behavior

c

:

self-control

6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

— dis·ci·plin·al adjective

Taking a look at the verse in II Thess, it seems that wrath is reserved for those outside of salvation..and again, don't want to get into the 3 stages of Trib either, but the usage of

the word seems to be applicable there which indicates that it is something more than discipline or even anger

or..do we consider God removing His hedge of protection from us, allowing the enemy to buffet us, the result of His anger towards His children? or is it ultimately Love?

There is a very pertinent scripture passage that deals exactly with the darkened sentence above.....I'm sure someone can think of it

sorry if it's a little messy...trouble with the formatting occurring with copy/paste

[wingnut-]

I think the book of Job serves as a great example of how individuals perceive calamity. We see that not only Job, but also those around him assume that these things are a result of God. They are not however, as is clearly stated in the scriptures, God merely allows these things, He is not the cause.

There is a distinction between what God does and what the enemy does, God may chasten us to teach us obedience (Deut.8:1-5), or to refine our faith (James 1:1-7; I Peter 1:3-9). The enemy seeks to destroy us, and more importantly our faith.

There is not one example I can find in scripture where God directs His wrath at a believer, and as was alluded to in a prior post, believers are not appointed to suffer His wrath. The clearest picture to paint of the scenario is found in Exodus, it illustrates how God operated from the time He chose His people until the time of the end.

Exodus 12:12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgement on all the gods of Egypt. I am The Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

This was a lasting ordinance as we are told in verse 14, we are covered by the blood of our Savior, and He will not allow us to be struck down.

[Guest]

I am a little disturbed over something I am reading in some threads recently. It is this: it seems to be the conviction of some believers, and yes they are believers, that Christians endure

God's WRATH. I'm not talking about the tribulation and there are enough threads on that already.

I am talking about God's wrath on Christians who disobey or sin or whatever.

Do Christians endure or suffer God's wrath? Scripture please to flesh out your response.

I think this could be a good discussion because, while we should fear God, do we fear Him for His anger and wrath?...

There Are Large

And Ancient Churches Squatting Upon This Earth

That Eagerly Teach That All Men Including Their Baptized Members Will Spend Time In Hell

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Before They Are Paid And Prayed Out Again

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-26

Or Have Been Punished Enough

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

For All Their Sins

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:24-28

Or So I'm Been Told

[Guest]

.... Is wrath the same as discipline....

Wrath

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

Discipline

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19

[He giveth more grace]

Thank you, Mr. Joe, for setting things straight.

[nebula]

God disciplines us, but that is different from His wrath.

But the Bible contains instances where the righteous were caught in the line of fire of God's wrath (i.e. Ezekiel and Daniel and his 3 friends who were sent into Babylonian captivity).

[missmuffet]

http://www.gotquestions.org/wrath-of-God.html