Conservatives in America treat liberals like Ninevites? What of grace?

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

Okay, so how am I "cursing" them???  How am I repaying evil for evil?  My point is that the liberals who play the victim card claiming that we are treating them like Ninevites or some other form of the worst people on earth have absolutely no moral ground to stand on.  They turn a blind eye and in some, take quiet pleasure in how conservatives are vilified in public.  They don't offer public approval, but as we learned from the history of the holocaust, staying silent is the same as saying it's okay.  The opposite of love is not hate; it's moral indifference.  I am not calling them names or using derogatory, filthy language to describe conservatives.  I am not playing the victim card so trying to accuse me of curing others is really unfair and is a false accusation.

 

 

I am not returning evil for evil  I am not vilifiying liberals or mistreating them. I am not claiming that liberal Christians are not saved or, whatever.  

 

In Matt. 5:39-41, when Jesus said that we are to "resist" an evil person, Jesus was speaking in the context of revenge.    Jesus was saying that we should not retaliltate in revenge against someone who has done something evil to us.  If  someone slaps me on the face, I am not to slap him on the face in revenge or retaliation.   Jesus is not talking about standing against false teachings or bad ideologies.  He is not taking away our right to challenge liberal ideaologues.

 

In fact, the entire passage you quoted from the sermon the mount is not even applicable to this because we are not even talking about persecution.  Liberals are not being persecuted.  They are being corrected.   You might want to discern the difference.

 

I think the whole "lack of grace" misses the mark because you are confuing "grace" with "sweetness."   Grace means that when you fail, I pick you up and give you another chance.   Nothing I have said indicates that liberals are somehow beyond grace or outside the purview of redemption.   But telling someone that their ideaology doesn't match Scripture and is not reflecting genuine Christianity is not a lack of grace, nor unloving.  It may not be "sweet" and pleasant, but sometimes the cold hard truth is what people need to face up to at some point.

 

No one calling anyone any names or insulting their intelligence, delcaring them as unsaved or whatever.  No one is calling anyone Ninevites or any other nonsense.  I think people need to stop being so hyper-sensitive and thin-skinned and learn that attacking your argument doesn't mean I think you are a bad person.  There are some liberals on here who are good people, but they have very bad theology that needs to be adjusted to fit with what Scripture teaches.

 

Interesting in bold. Perhaps let's get down to it then. If someone believes in evolution can they still be a Christ-follower?

 

God bless,

GE

 

Of course.  We have a number of self-proclaimed evolutionists on this board who are believers.  The question  I put to them is why they, as Christ followers,  would they want to embrace a theory that precludes Christ as our Creator?    I mean if you believe the Bible, Jesus is the creator (Col 1:15-17)   So why accept an inferior theory made by fallible men, over the infallible word of an all-knowing, all-powerful God?    They ignored that question.

 

 

Okay so are you saying that Christians have not questioned the salvaiton of other Christians over the whole "how the world was created and we came into being" debate?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

I was browing through the threads today and came accross these two comments. I'd like to include these in this discussion.

 

The context of these posts are in relation do adultery and can be found

 

Sorry I have not been clear.

It is my view that we as Christians should not use rules, laws and regulations to force people to act like Christians.

I think this has been a failed tactic by the church. instead of focusing on the hearts and souls we have focused on laws and voting. I do not believe we can do both effectively and trying to do so causes us to fail on both fronts.

I also feel we are not consistent....we want the government to be involved in certain areas but not others

 

 

I agree with JDavis that we as Christians should not use rules, laws, and regulations to force people to act like Christians. I'd add that the heart change is the Holy Spirit's job. We're simply messengers. But even then we're to measure our message with a balance of grace AND truth.
 

A few weeks ago, I gave a message to our congregation about the mandate that we have from our Lord.  That is first to win souls, baptize them, and then disciple them.  I spoke about the situation in the world as we're trying to place a bandaid on a spiritual issue that cannot be fixed from the outside -- but must be fixed internally -- from the heart!  I believe is someone is truly born again, then the Spirit leads them to what is holy, true, and righteous!

 

Politicans can only place a bandaid on a problem -- but it's up to us as believers to fix the internal problems by getting serious about revival!

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

I think sometimes we expect Christians (especially those newer to the faith) to simply disciple themselves. And when they have questions instead of carefully, with the aid of Scripture, disciplening them we just want them to believe because we said so with our words. Lol.

 

Praying for revivial.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

This too

 

 

 

Jdavis I think you make a great point and I’ve never understood why we focus so much in gays and yet make little fuss over adultery.

It is easy to hate sins we don't struggle with.

I guess that’s why gluttony almost gets a free pass.

 

 

 

It's very easy to hate sins we don't struggle with. It's also easy to demonize those who do and even claim they do not know Christ.

God bless,

GE

[nebula]

GE - Do you advocate then that we "keep our religion behind church doors" when it comes to our voice in the political process?

 

(I ask because the points you make could be interpreted that way.)

 

Please clarify.

Edited August 5, 2013 by nebula

[Willa]

I'm a dyed in the wool conservative and I don't apologize for it. I have a problem with people saying they are born again Christians yet support gay marriage, abortion and a host of other things you cannot back up with scripture. I don't hate anyone I just stand on what the word of God says and I don't see how you can claim to be a christian and support so many things that the Bible says are wrong. I pray for these people that they find the truth, and that would be Jesus.

Perhaps it is because nobody has sat down and calmly explained to them what the Bible says on the matter?

I too pray that people find the truth. I still maintain that it is possible to support the things mentioned above and be a Christian. I do believe that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and patient encouragement of other Believers it is possible for people to come to the truth (abortion is murder, homosexual relations are sin, etc) regarding these subjects.

GE, I agree with you to an extent. The problem that I face is that they refuse to use the Bible as a basis for coming to agreement because they believe the Bible is just mans philosophy so they are also entitled to their ideas. So they don't even have a bibical definition of Who God is. I so often hear of hell "well, MY god would not send anybody to hell!" They say they have asked Jesus to be their Savior but by this time you don't even know who they think Jesus is. They reject His word. I have a very hard time thinking of a person as a Christian who has made God into their own image.. So every so often I get to sew a seed or share a testamony, and I continue to pray and to love them.

How would you consider these people? are they saved? I honostly don't know. Do you consider the emerging church to be a Christian church? or Unitarian, or Black Liberation Theology? Some people have a different idea of what it even means to accept Jesus as your Savior.

My issue is discarding or disregarding these people (so-called liberals) as unsaved simply because of their views on certain controversial issues.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

GE - Do you advocate then that we "keep our religion behind church doors" when it comes to our voice in the political process?

 

(I ask because the points you make could be interpreted that way.)

 

Please clarify.

 

Sure sister I'll try to clarify.

I believe Christians should advocate for what is truth. Meaning that we as citizens (of whatever country) should in fact vote, run for office, and attempt to make positive change where we work, live, and play. In the U.S. in particular there's lot's of opportunity to make a difference in the political arena.

However, I do think we need to remember that making a difference in culture can only come through Christ. We need to stop treating the symptoms (simply fighting social issues) and treat the disease (sin - there's a lot of lost people out there). We shouldn't be surprised when people who come to the Lord have habits, hangups, and hurts that are contrary to Scripture. Again, I'm not advocating ignoring sin. I'm simply stating that the method (discipleship through relationships) is just as important as the message (i.e. homosexuality is sin).

Out of curiosity what exactly is this question in reference to please? I tried to answer as best as I could.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

I'm a dyed in the wool conservative and I don't apologize for it.  I have a problem with people saying they are born again Christians yet support gay marriage, abortion and a host of other things you cannot back up with scripture.  I don't hate anyone I just stand on what the word of God says and I don't see how you can claim to be a christian and support so many things that the Bible says are wrong.  I pray for these people that they find the truth, and that would be Jesus.  

 

Perhaps it is because nobody has sat down and calmly explained to them what the Bible says on the matter?

I too pray that people find the truth. I still maintain that it is possible to support the things mentioned above and be a Christian. I do believe that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and patient encouragement of other Believers it is possible for people to come to the truth (abortion is murder, homosexual relations are sin, etc) regarding these subjects.

My issue is discarding or disregarding these people (so-called liberals) as unsaved simply because of their views on certain controversial issues.

God bless,

GE

 

GE, I agree with you to an extent. The problem that I face is that either they refuse to use the Bible as a basis for coming to agreement because they believe the Bible is just mans philosophy so they are also entitled to their ideas. So they don't even have a biblical definition of Who God is. I so often hear of hell "well, MY god would not send anybody to hell!" They say they have asked Jesus to be their Savior but by this time you don't even know who they think Jesus is. I have a very hard time thinking of a person as a Christian who has made God into their own image.. So every so often I get to sew a seed or share a testimony, and I continue to pray and to love them.

 

 

Not understanding who Jesus Christ is (God, Messiah, The One True Way), our condition as separated from God due to our sin, the need for a Savior, the reality of judgement to come (heaven, hell, new heaven and earth), etc. can certainly be serious issues. Again, what are the basics of the Christian faith?

God isn't made into our image. God reveals Himself through His Word - the Bible.

Yes! The key is to keep sowing the seed of truth as found in Scripture. Pray for them. Love them where they're at. Hope for the best and let the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit in their lives.

I guess I just don't understand people who simply throw up a wall and say because you don't believe exactly as I do I want nothing to do with you. The Jesus I know is bigger than anyone's stubborness and unbelief.

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

Okay, so how am I "cursing" them???  How am I repaying evil for evil?  My point is that the liberals who play the victim card claiming that we are treating them like Ninevites or some other form of the worst people on earth have absolutely no moral ground to stand on.  They turn a blind eye and in some, take quiet pleasure in how conservatives are vilified in public.  They don't offer public approval, but as we learned from the history of the holocaust, staying silent is the same as saying it's okay.  The opposite of love is not hate; it's moral indifference.  I am not calling them names or using derogatory, filthy language to describe conservatives.  I am not playing the victim card so trying to accuse me of curing others is really unfair and is a false accusation.

 

 

I am not returning evil for evil  I am not vilifiying liberals or mistreating them. I am not claiming that liberal Christians are not saved or, whatever.  

 

In Matt. 5:39-41, when Jesus said that we are to "resist" an evil person, Jesus was speaking in the context of revenge.    Jesus was saying that we should not retaliltate in revenge against someone who has done something evil to us.  If  someone slaps me on the face, I am not to slap him on the face in revenge or retaliation.   Jesus is not talking about standing against false teachings or bad ideologies.  He is not taking away our right to challenge liberal ideaologues.

 

In fact, the entire passage you quoted from the sermon the mount is not even applicable to this because we are not even talking about persecution.  Liberals are not being persecuted.  They are being corrected.   You might want to discern the difference.

 

I think the whole "lack of grace" misses the mark because you are confuing "grace" with "sweetness."   Grace means that when you fail, I pick you up and give you another chance.   Nothing I have said indicates that liberals are somehow beyond grace or outside the purview of redemption.   But telling someone that their ideaology doesn't match Scripture and is not reflecting genuine Christianity is not a lack of grace, nor unloving.  It may not be "sweet" and pleasant, but sometimes the cold hard truth is what people need to face up to at some point.

 

No one calling anyone any names or insulting their intelligence, delcaring them as unsaved or whatever.  No one is calling anyone Ninevites or any other nonsense.  I think people need to stop being so hyper-sensitive and thin-skinned and learn that attacking your argument doesn't mean I think you are a bad person.  There are some liberals on here who are good people, but they have very bad theology that needs to be adjusted to fit with what Scripture teaches.

 

Interesting in bold. Perhaps let's get down to it then. If someone believes in evolution can they still be a Christ-follower?

 

God bless,

GE

 

Of course.  We have a number of self-proclaimed evolutionists on this board who are believers.  The question  I put to them is why they, as Christ followers,  would they want to embrace a theory that precludes Christ as our Creator?    I mean if you believe the Bible, Jesus is the creator (Col 1:15-17)   So why accept an inferior theory made by fallible men, over the infallible word of an all-knowing, all-powerful God?    They ignored that question.

 

 

Okay so are you saying that Christians have not questioned the salvaiton of other Christians over the whole "how the world was created and we came into being" debate?

God bless,

GE

 

I am not saying that it has never happened.  I am saying that I have not questioned the salvation of anyone on this board for simply believing in Evolution.   I am also saying that while it may have happened on occasions in the past, it is not a regular ongoing occurance and that the majority of conversvatives on THIS board have not accused people on this board of not being Christians for believing in evolution.   It may have happened, but it is certainly not the norm on this board.

 

I will say this, though.  There is a form of Christianity in this world, especially in the US and Europe that does not have Christ in it.  That also needs to be factored into all of this.   There are many people who profess to be Christians who "Christians" in the sense that they participate in the external Christian community.  They are what I call "cultural Christians" who go through the motions, but never made a decision for Christ. In same cases, there are those who think they are Christians because they were confirmed at age six or were baptized as an infant, yet have never darkened the door of a church, since.  

 

Asking if a person is unsaved because they believe in evolution is not the right question.  The right question to ask is why a person who professes Jesus as Savior and Lord would want to accept such a theory that precludes a divine Creator, in the first place.

[GoldenEagle]

Someone said this yesterday... In a discussion about this thread:

 

 

 

But again, with the thread, it's all coming across as a one side or the other, like there is no way we can do both. Somehow there needs to be an understanding that both sides have valid points.
 

If somehow those points can be agreed upon - without discounting the other - perhaps we can get somewhere towards a solution? Does that make sense?

[Guest shiloh357]

I have found that people do use Scripture to support just about anything. And I will include born again Christians. I know born again Christians who have an affair and try to use Scripture to justify their infidelity. I know Christians who try to justify murder. What do we do with Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

 

Bonhoeffer didn't conspire to commit murder.  Murder is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life.  Bonhoeffer's involvement in the conspriacy to assassinate Hitler was an act of war, and occurred in te context of a major world war. It doesn't qualify as an act of murder, on moral grounds. 

 

The point is, Christians do sin and sin terribly, and most try to make the bible justify what they want to believe or do. These are messed up people for sure, but I think this goes on in a lot of Christians, trying to interpret Scripture in a way they would prefer.

 

But that doens't really address the substance of what I was saying.  The issue I raised was not about people justifying sin by the Scriptures.   What I was referring to is outright rejection of the authority of Scripture to define sin and morality, as well as the rejection of the inerrancy of Scripture in historical matters, thus relegating history to nothing but an allegorical lesson, a story of events that never really happened.

 

 

As far as abortion, Scripture does not forbid abortion, it forbids murder. Those who murder have sinned.

 

Abortion IS murder.  Abortion is the wanton act of taking innocent human lives, namely babies.  How can you separate abortion from murder?  Unborn babies are as human as you and I.

 

 

What does Scripture say about 'abortion'? Well, we do have instances where abortion is done. 

 

Numbers 5:21

²¹ here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

 

Numbers 5 is talking about a women whose husband suspects she is cheating.

 

Numbers 5:11-13

¹¹ Then the Lord said to Moses, ¹² “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him ¹³ so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act),

 

That is not an abortion.  Abortion is understood as a human act of murder. It amounts to man taking the life of the unborn baby.  In the case you listed above. The curse comes upon the woman for marital infedility because she tried to hide her sexual encounter from her husband.

 

For homosexual marriage, Scripture defines a scriptural marriage. Civil authorities define a civil marriage. There are Christians who will not have a civil marriage, only a religious/scriptural marriage before God. Scripture really does not comment on civil marriages. In pagan cultures, pagans did get married, but their marriage was not a biblical marriage. Scripture says not to be unequally yoked, and a pagan marrying a pagan is not unequally yoked, but they are not getting married as a covenant before God. A real Christian who marries a non-Christian is violating the command, as they are 'unequally yoked' so this marriage is not a biblical marriage.

 

Marriage belongs to God and God alone.  God never intended for marriage to exist without Him in it.  I agree that there are many people who are married and their marriages are invalid before God.  Homosexual civil unions are not biblical marriages.   I personally do not believe that any marriage outside of God's biblical prescription is a biblically valid marriage.  It may be valid according to the state and may meet all requirements that are placed on by the state, but that does not make  a biblically valid marriage.

 

In the Mosaic law, the prohibition is against the form of sex. Sodomy. And of course there are other forbidden forms. So a person who is committing the sexual act is in sin, but there are other sexual sins. Sodomy is not the only one.      

 

1 Cor 6:9-11

⁹ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, ¹⁰ Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Well, adulterers are included in this list, along with thieves, drunkards.  

But, some of the Corinthians had committed these sins, and were sanctified. So homosexual actions are not among the unforgivable sins. And sadly, we do know of Christians who have committed adultery through the media, which is in the same list, who hid their adultery for several years. We also know of some Christian ministers who committed sexual acts with other men who hid that lifestyle for years, and have now confessed and repented. 

 

 

Again, you are confusing issues.  The issue is not whether or not Christian have committed horrible sins.  They have.  In some cases, they are new beleivers who fall to old temptations that they have not been completely delivered from yet.  

 

But that is not the issue.  The issue is whether or not a person can advocate for a particular lifestyle, or ideaology that God hates and calls abominable and still claim that they are a spirit-filled believer and are led by the Holy Spirit.  Can I fight for gay marriage  and promote homosexuality as normal and valid and yet demand to be considered a genuine Christ follower?   How far does that go?   Where do we draw the line as to what we can or cannot advocate for as believers?