The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[iamlamad]

 

 

You have it backwards: the devil's deceit is the posttrib doctrine. He WANTS you to be left behind, so he can sift you as wheat. He is in hope he can make you, and all the others who have swallowed this doctrine, take the mark. He is betting when you get hungry enough, and are dying for a drink of water, you will just give up and take the mark.  Make no mistake, that is his goal.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Do you believe having the incorrect eschatology causes a Christian to be left behind?  I have never read that in the bible before.   

 

How many times did Jesus warn people to WATCH? How can one watch for something they cannot believe in? How can one have FAITH in something they cannot believe in? Make no mistake here: Jesus is coming for those EXPECTING Him and WATCHING for Him and with FAITH to be found worthy to be caught up.

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

You have it backwards: the devil's deceit is the posttrib doctrine. He WANTS you to be left behind, so he can sift you as wheat. He is in hope he can make you, and all the others who have swallowed this doctrine, take the mark. He is betting when you get hungry enough, and are dying for a drink of water, you will just give up and take the mark.  Make no mistake, that is his goal.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Do you believe having the incorrect eschatology causes a Christian to be left behind?  I have never read that in the bible before.   

 

How many times did Jesus warn people to WATCH? How can one watch for something they cannot believe in? How can one have FAITH in something they cannot believe in? Make no mistake here: Jesus is coming for those EXPECTING Him and WATCHING for Him and with FAITH to be found worthy to be caught up.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Even Paul and the Thessalonians who were watching for the coming of Christ, only expected their troubles to end at the second coming, not earlier. You don't have to be a pre-tribber to watch and wait earnestly for Jesus, and to watch for the signs that precede His coming.  It's faith in Jesus that counts for salvation, and not faith in one's end-times doctrine. You are diluting the cross with your comments. Hopefully you grow in your knowledge of what really saves us. 

 

And once again you are misunderstanding the timing of the "thief in the night".  Nearly all NT verses encouraging us to watch are referring to the coming of Christ and not an earlier rapture. So unless you can show me otherwise, you are applying second coming warnings to your earlier rapture.

[ARGOSY]

Please refer to the following excerpt from Luke 12.  note that its the bad servant who is unaware and is beaten at the coming of the thief in the night. I don't see two comings here:

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

If you see the 6th seal as something at the end, that is one more disagreement we have. I am convinced NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded, and NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken.  Any time someone feels the need to rearrange John's God given chronology, I say their theory is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong. Sorry, the 6th seal is the START of the DAy of the Lord, coming in like a freight train. But it is only the beginning. There will be 7 plus long years between the 6th seal and the coming of Jesus on the white horse. 

 

We differ so much. Not only are you splitting the following events into two such events:

The rapture, the resurrection, the last trumpet, the gathering of the elect, the appearance of Jesus in the clouds with the angels.

 

You are now also splitting other second coming events into two such events through your rendering of Rev 6 by introducing TWO of the following:

The great earthquake

The appearance of God to all

The stars fall to earth

The heavens roll away

The day becomes dark

A day of wrath

 

Your pre-trib rapture is starting to sound more and more like the second coming.  I can't believe any serious bible students believe in such a massive duplication of events .

 

As for the sequence of Revelation, its obviously multiple visions about the second coming, and is not sequential at all. Anyone can read through the entire book and see that most of those visions end at the same second coming. 

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

If you see the 6th seal as something at the end, that is one more disagreement we have. I am convinced NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded, and NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken.  Any time someone feels the need to rearrange John's God given chronology, I say their theory is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong. Sorry, the 6th seal is the START of the DAy of the Lord, coming in like a freight train. But it is only the beginning. There will be 7 plus long years between the 6th seal and the coming of Jesus on the white horse. 

 

We differ so much. Not only are you splitting the following events into two such events:

The rapture, the resurrection, the last trumpet, the gathering of the elect, the appearance of Jesus in the clouds with the angels.

 

You are now also splitting other second coming events into two such events through your rendering of Rev 6 by introducing TWO of the following:

The great earthquake

The appearance of God to all

The stars fall to earth

The heavens roll away

The day becomes dark

A day of wrath

 

Your pre-trib rapture is starting to sound more and more like the second coming.  I can't believe any serious bible students believe in such a massive duplication of events .

 

As for the sequence of Revelation, its obviously multiple visions about the second coming, and is not sequential at all. Anyone can read through the entire book and see that most of those visions end at the same second coming. 

 

Argosy,

 

You have convinced me of one thing: the complete waste of time writing on forums. If you only see one coming, fine: WAIT for it. You will be left behind. You will be very sorry you were left behind. However, it will be your own doing. You should know that millions of serious bible students see TWO more comings of Jesus, the first FOR His bride, the last WITH His bride. I understand you see through preconceived glasses. I know enough to know, you will never see a pretrib rapture unless you take these preconceived glasses off. Through them, you see a "coming" at the 6th seal, where millions of others do not.

 

In my opinion, you will not have long to wait. It is my guess the pretrib rapture will come before the last 3 blood red moons appear.

 

By the way, do you not see how UN-scriptural your theory of how you will get to the marriage is?

 

LAMAD

Edited July 21, 2014 by iamlamad

[OneLight]

I am pleased to see 10 pages and very few personal attacks.  Please leave out any and all comments toward a person.  Discuss the statements one brings and leave out personal judgments toward anyone and this thread will remain open.  It does not take long before one little jab is returned with another and personal insults and attacks take over a thread.

[OneLight]

Over the years of discussing this topic, I have found three major beliefs pertaining the timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls.  To simplify, I will only show pictures of how the timing line up for each belief.
 

 

 

Personally, I follow the later since this is how it is laid out in scripture.

[ARGOSY]

Over the years of discussing this topic, I have found three major beliefs pertaining the timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls.  To simplify, I will only show pictures of how the timing line up for each belief.

 

 

 

Personally, I follow the later since this is how it is laid out in scripture.

 

Thanks, I follow the middle one. Why do you feel the chapter layouts have significance, rather than the context of each vision?  John is having a series of visions, he sees something, "then I saw"....."then I saw"....    .    Just like Daniel's visions were often about the same thing, I don't see why we should apply that "layout" principle to Revelation when context so clearly indicates repeated visions of the second coming. 

[OneLight]

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

[iamlamad]

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

Very well said. However, the seal is not "opened," it is BROKEN.

 

Consider a scroll written and rolled up, then sealed with 7 seals. What is written in the inside is hidden and cannot be seen until ALL SEVEN of the seals are broken to allow the scroll to be unrolled.  The contents of each seal was written on the outside of the scroll, and probably also WHO could be worthy to break the seals.

 

This scroll was and is the title deed and lease document to planet earth. It was an agreement made for Adam, as Adam was the first lease holder. However, through Adam's sin, Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the "god of this present world." 

 

If no one had been found worthy to break the seals, then the devil would forever remain the god of this world. Thank God forever, JESUS was found worthy, and when He began to break the seals, the end of Satan's reign as god of this world would soon be over.  When the 7th trumpet sounds, the 6000 year lease given to Adam will be UP, FINISHED, and suddenly the only legal thing Satan had to hold on to will be GONE. The lease he usurped will be OVER. This will be Michael's sign to go to war and take Satan down from his heavenly realms.

 

Therefore the seals are VERY important, for without them begin broken, NO TRUMPET would be sounded and none of the rest of Revelation would happen.

 

LAMAD