The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[iamlamad]

 

Over the years of discussing this topic, I have found three major beliefs pertaining the timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls.  To simplify, I will only show pictures of how the timing line up for each belief.

 

 

 

Personally, I follow the later since this is how it is laid out in scripture.

 

Thanks, I follow the middle one. Why do you feel the chapter layouts have significance, rather than the context of each vision?  John is having a series of visions, he sees something, "then I saw"....."then I saw"....    .    Just like Daniel's visions were often about the same thing, I don't see why we should apply that "layout" principle to Revelation when context so clearly indicates repeated visions of the second coming. 

 

It is called preconceived glasses: you see things not intended by the Author.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Over the years of discussing this topic, I have found three major beliefs pertaining the timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls.  To simplify, I will only show pictures of how the timing line up for each belief.

 

 

 

Personally, I follow the later since this is how it is laid out in scripture.

Wise choice, for it is the truth and what was and is intended by the Author.

 

LAMAD

[OneLight]

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

Very well said. However, the seal is not "opened," it is BROKEN.

 

Revelation 6:1

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.

 

The Greek word is hnoixen, (G455) meaning open.  The same word is used for every seal.  Are we going to argue semantics?

 

Consider a scroll written and rolled up, then sealed with 7 seals. What is written in the inside is hidden and cannot be seen until ALL SEVEN of the seals are broken to allow the scroll to be unrolled.  The contents of each seal was written on the outside of the scroll, and probably also WHO could be worthy to break the seals.

 

That is not what is written in scripture.  Each seal is opened and the content reveled.

 

This scroll was and is the title deed and lease document to planet earth. It was an agreement made for Adam, as Adam was the first lease holder. However, through Adam's sin, Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the "god of this present world."

 

This is extra-biblical.  Can you show through scripture what you claim?  I can't find it anywhere in His words.

 

If no one had been found worthy to break the seals, then the devil would forever remain the god of this world. Thank God forever, JESUS was found worthy, and when He began to break the seals, the end of Satan's reign as god of this world would soon be over.  When the 7th trumpet sounds, the 6000 year lease given to Adam will be UP, FINISHED, and suddenly the only legal thing Satan had to hold on to will be GONE. The lease he usurped will be OVER. This will be Michael's sign to go to war and take Satan down from his heavenly realms.

 

Therefore the seals are VERY important, for without them begin broken, NO TRUMPET would be sounded and none of the rest of Revelation would happen.

 

LAMAD

I disagree with your idea that Adam was held in such high esteem. I believe God knew that Adam would fail and never intended for Adam to be any more than what he became. That is the reason why He sent us His Son.

I also don't like to read into scripture where scripture is silent. Many many mistakes and false beliefs begin this way. I will stick to what scripture says.

[OneLight]

Over the years of discussing this topic, I have found three major beliefs pertaining the timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls.  To simplify, I will only show pictures of how the timing line up for each belief.

 

 

 

Personally, I follow the later since this is how it is laid out in scripture.

 

Thanks, I follow the middle one. Why do you feel the chapter layouts have significance, rather than the context of each vision?  John is having a series of visions, he sees something, "then I saw"....."then I saw"....    .    Just like Daniel's visions were often about the same thing, I don't see why we should apply that "layout" principle to Revelation when context so clearly indicates repeated visions of the second coming.

It is called preconceived glasses: you see things not intended by the Author.

 

LAMAD

Why the personal attack?

[ARGOSY]

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

 

How would you then regard the 6th seal of Revelation 6?  Do you consider it to be an event before the second coming? As you say, God is not the author of confusion, when I read it, the entire wording speaks to me of the final day which ends the kingdoms of this world. All kings are exposed to the glory of God and there is this dramatic earthquake etc etc   

[OneLight]

 

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

 

How would you then regard the 6th seal of Revelation 6?  Do you consider it to be an event before the second coming? As you say, God is not the author of confusion, when I read it, the entire wording speaks to me of the final day which ends the kingdoms of this world. All kings are exposed to the glory of God and there is this dramatic earthquake etc etc   

 

 

I leave the timing of the rapture to those who are sure of themselves.  As for your statement about there being no more kingdoms, what kingdoms is John writing about at the 7th trumpet?  I see the 5th seal as men fearing God, not that there will be no more kingdoms.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

 

How would you then regard the 6th seal of Revelation 6?  Do you consider it to be an event before the second coming? As you say, God is not the author of confusion, when I read it, the entire wording speaks to me of the final day which ends the kingdoms of this world. All kings are exposed to the glory of God and there is this dramatic earthquake etc etc   

 

 

I leave the timing of the rapture to those who are sure of themselves.  As for your statement about there being no more kingdoms, what kingdoms is John writing about at the 7th trumpet?  I see the 5th seal as men fearing God, not that there will be no more kingdoms.

 

 

The 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath are all associated with a great earthquake, and the kings or kingdoms subject to Christ.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Its all the same event, expressed in different ways. I'm not trying to convince you of this because you are probably not open to being convinced, I'm just hoping some other readers will see the obvious in what I'm saying. We don't have 3 great earthquakes, each with the kings of earth involved, and each completing a series of 7 heavenly events. Its way more obvious there is just the one earthquake, and the one subjection of all kingdoms to Christ.

[iamlamad]

 

 

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

Very well said. However, the seal is not "opened," it is BROKEN.

 

 

Revelation 6:1

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.

 

The Greek word is hnoixen, (G455) meaning open.  The same word is used for every seal.  Are we going to argue semantics?

 

Consider a scroll written and rolled up, then sealed with 7 seals. What is written in the inside is hidden and cannot be seen until ALL SEVEN of the seals are broken to allow the scroll to be unrolled.  The contents of each seal was written on the outside of the scroll, and probably also WHO could be worthy to break the seals.

 

That is not what is written in scripture.  Each seal is opened and the content reveled.

 

This scroll was and is the title deed and lease document to planet earth. It was an agreement made for Adam, as Adam was the first lease holder. However, through Adam's sin, Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the "god of this present world."

 

This is extra-biblical.  Can you show through scripture what you claim?  I can't find it anywhere in His words.

 

If no one had been found worthy to break the seals, then the devil would forever remain the god of this world. Thank God forever, JESUS was found worthy, and when He began to break the seals, the end of Satan's reign as god of this world would soon be over.  When the 7th trumpet sounds, the 6000 year lease given to Adam will be UP, FINISHED, and suddenly the only legal thing Satan had to hold on to will be GONE. The lease he usurped will be OVER. This will be Michael's sign to go to war and take Satan down from his heavenly realms.

 

Therefore the seals are VERY important, for without them begin broken, NO TRUMPET would be sounded and none of the rest of Revelation would happen.

 

LAMAD

I disagree with your idea that Adam was held in such high esteem. I believe God knew that Adam would fail and never intended for Adam to be any more than what he became. That is the reason why He sent us His Son.

I also don't like to read into scripture where scripture is silent. Many many mistakes and false beliefs begin this way. I will stick to what scripture says.

 

Ok, the seal was opened.  I was wrong.  it was translated 77 times in the KJV as "opened." As far as anyone knows, they did not have "books" back then as we know a book now. they had scrolls. The scrolls could be sealed. They used clay and wax to seal.

 

We do have some scriptural evidence of a book:

 

Jeremiah 32

⁹ And I bought the field of Hanameel my uncle's son, that was in Anathoth, and weighed him the money, even seventeen shekels of silver.

¹⁰ And I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances.

¹¹ So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open:

¹² And I gave the evidence of the purchase unto Baruch the son of Neriah, the son of Maaseiah, in the sight of Hanameel mine uncle's son, and in the presence of the witnesses that subscribed the book of the purchase, before all the Jews that sat in the court of the prison.

¹³ And I charged Baruch before them, saying,

¹⁴ Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Take these evidences, this evidence of the purchase, both which is sealed, and this evidence which is open; and put them in an earthen vessel, that they may continue many days.

 

This was also called a "book." It was sealed yet there was some of it open and it was according to law and custom.

The first seals were probably of clay, then later of wax. John does not tell us what kind of seal it was. Whether it was borken or opened, makes little difference. The point I was making is that if this was a scroll, which seems to be the only kind of "book" they had back then, the scroll could not be unrolled until all seven seals were broken or opened.

 

Many people seem to think that they can open a trumpet or a vial before all seven seals are broken. I find that very improbably with the text we are given - in fact impossible.

 

Did you never read how the Kingdoms of the world were transferred to Jesus, and how Satan was cast down? Did you never wonder why? Did you never ask God why? Did you ever want to know for sure what the mystery was that would be finished at the 7th trumpet? I certainly did, so I asked God and waited for Hiim to answer.

 

I really don't care if anyone believes it. We do know several things: Satan took Adam's place as the one with dominion over this planet. He has remained the god of this world ever since. However, he LOSES at the 7th trumpet. Also at the 7th trumpet Satan is cast down. The answer God gave me fits the scriptures.

 

We can be SURE that at the 7th trumpet, Satan loses the kingdoms of the world, and is cast down very angry.  The reason behind it is not so important as the fact that it will happen.

 

From Edward Gibbon:

"The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of the creation had been finished in six days, their duration in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed, would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection". - Vol I, p.403"

 

From an ancient Jewish sage:

"The ancient Seder Olam Rabbah (c. 240) catalogs historical events from the start of Creation according to the 6,000 years of history. Humanity will have his time of reign on earth for 6,000 years and then the Messiah will begin his reign in the 7th millennium, a "Sabbath" of sacred history. Later midrash goes along with this basic outline: "Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting" (Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer)."

 

I don't think we need to argue semantics. It is enough that when a seal was opened, something was written to happen at that time, and it happened or will happen. I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal today, waiting on the coming of our Lord FOR His bride.  The 7th seal, when opened, will be the official opening of the 70th week. That too is not written in so many words, but it is truth. When God first began to teach me about Revelation, He sent me to find "the entire 70th week, clearly marked." (those were His words). Then He told me how to find it. Now I know that the 70th week is marked with 7's.

 

Many who say they are pretrib don't even know where the "trib" or the rapture is in Revelation, so they cannot prove it. This has left a HUGE hole for postribbers. Others teach the rapture at Rev. 4:1 and posttribbers know that is just not what the scriptrue is saying, so another huge hole was created.

 

It is OK to stick with what is written.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

God is not the author of confusion.  I see no reason why the seal has to be opened for the whole length of the trumpets and bowls.  Once it is opened, it is opened.  The 7th seal ushers in the first trumpet, not all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls.  The 7th trumpet brings in the last of the three woe's.  While the blowing of the last trumpet may not immediately usher in the first bowl, since God explains what has been, is and will be happening, there is no indication that the lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail lasts until the end of the bowls.  The bowls have their own judgments.

 

The confusion begins when men take scripture and, using their own understanding, tries to make what sounds the same as being the same.  Each of the seals, trumpets and bowls are separate, though they may have similar judgments.

 

How would you then regard the 6th seal of Revelation 6?  Do you consider it to be an event before the second coming? As you say, God is not the author of confusion, when I read it, the entire wording speaks to me of the final day which ends the kingdoms of this world. All kings are exposed to the glory of God and there is this dramatic earthquake etc etc   

 

 

I leave the timing of the rapture to those who are sure of themselves.  As for your statement about there being no more kingdoms, what kingdoms is John writing about at the 7th trumpet?  I see the 5th seal as men fearing God, not that there will be no more kingdoms.

 

 

The 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath are all associated with a great earthquake, and the kings or kingdoms subject to Christ.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Its all the same event, expressed in different ways. I'm not trying to convince you of this because you are probably not open to being convinced, I'm just hoping some other readers will see the obvious in what I'm saying. We don't have 3 great earthquakes, each with the kings of earth involved, and each completing a series of 7 heavenly events. Its way more obvious there is just the one earthquake, and the one subjection of all kingdoms to Christ.

 

You don't think God can produce more than one great earthquake? How many has happened in the last few years? These are DIFFERENT earthquakes at different times. Just so you will know, when God resurrects people long dead, that very resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake. The longer they have been dead, the greater the earthquake. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. It will be worldwide because the dead in Christ will be found worldwide. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." It will happen SUDDENLY, without warning, because that is exactly how the rapture event will happen: without warning.

 

The earthquake mentioned when the two witnesses rise up will be the same earthquake mentioned at the 7th vial, because they must testify for 1260 days and lay dead three days, which will take them to the timing of the 7th trumpet. It will be at that 7th trumpet that the Old Testemant saints rise. Many will be from before the great flood, so it will of necisity be the worst earthquake this world has ever seen. If you notice, John gives us a difference when describing these earthquakes.

 

If you will notice, in the 6th seal earthquake the mountains are moved, but STILL EXIST. At the 7th vial earthquake the mountains disappear. They cannot be the same earthquake.

 

LAMAD

[OneLight]

The 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath are all associated with a great earthquake, and the kings or kingdoms subject to Christ.

The first trumpet is not sounded until the opening of the 7th seal, which comes after the 6th seal. The bowls do not come until after the the 7th trumpet. You see, even though they have common judgments, they cannot be the same event. That is the trouble with trying to fit them into the same event. According to scripture, it is not possible. It does become possible when we use our own understanding and imagination.