Tongues Evidence?

[Reformed Baptist]

 

 

 

But human languages like English, French etc, and not heavenly tongues? 

 I am saying that there is no scriptural references of anyone speaking in "unknown heavenly" tongues

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become assounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

The word 'though' here is key to the understanding of Paul's words. He is employing hyperbole to make his point. He is saying 'even if I could speak in the tongues of the angels, and have this gift in a degree beyond all others but I do not love then that tongue is as useful as a broken trumpet.'

 

So he is not saying he could speak in such tongues, rather he is saying even if he could, the implication then is that even Paul who spoke in tongues more then all of his audience (1 Cor 14:8) didn't use such tongues. Far from being evidence for speaking in heavenly tongues this text is actually a refutation of the practice. 

 

 1 Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

You may notice that the word 'unkown' is in italics in the text that means that it is not in the original text. the Greek reads ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ ἀλλὰ θεῷ· it literally translates  'for to speak in a tongue not to a man but to God' The translators have inserted the word 'unkown' to help our understanding and the flow of the text. So we have to ask ourselves what they meant by it.

 

To answer that question we notice firstly that the tongue is unknown by the subject of the sentence (the person who is speaking), now certainly that could include 'heavenly tongues' but it by no means has to, Farsi is an unknown tongue to me in that I cannot speak it.

 

Also, and this is important to note, if Paul meant a something other then a language of the world, why didn't he use the proper word for such tongues that was in wide use at the time, φθέγγομαι instead he sticks with γλώσσῃ which when used in regards to languages we speak is used exclusively to refer to human language.     

 

1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.  14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.  15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

 

I don't see any reference to 'heavenly' tongues here, again the verses are just saying that if the speaker and hearers do not understand the tongue that is being used it does nothing to edify either the speaker of the hearer.

 

The interesting, but often neglected, thing about 1 Cor 14 is that Paul goes onto to explain the purpose of tongues, v21-22, and he quotes Is 28:11-12 which is a prophecy to the Jews that they would know God's judgement was upon them when the worship of God was performed in languages that they did not know. He says tongues are a sign to unbelievers - that they cannot understand. 

 

The reality is that no text in the Bible demands an understanding that we can utter some sort of ecstatic or heavenly tongue, in fact the Bible seems to speak indirectly against such a practice. Also as we look at the evidence of the examples of tongue speaking by Christians in the NT we notice that invariably they are other human languages of which the speaker has no natural knowledge.   

[donfish06]

 

 

 

 

But human languages like English, French etc, and not heavenly tongues? 

 I am saying that there is no scriptural references of anyone speaking in "unknown heavenly" tongues

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become assounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

The word 'though' here is key to the understanding of Paul's words. He is employing hyperbole to make his point. He is saying 'even if I could speak in the tongues of the angels, and have this gift in a degree beyond all others but I do not love then that tongue is as useful as a broken trumpet.'

 

So he is not saying he could speak in such tongues, rather he is saying even if he could, the implication then is that even Paul who spoke in tongues more then all of his audience (1 Cor 14:8) didn't use such tongues. Far from being evidence for speaking in heavenly tongues this text is actually a refutation of the practice. 

 

 

 

 1 Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

You may notice that the word 'unkown' is in italics in the text that means that it is not in the original text. the Greek reads ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ ἀλλὰ θεῷ· it literally translates  'for to speak in a tongue not to a man but to God' The translators have inserted the word 'unkown' to help our understanding and the flow of the text. So we have to ask ourselves what they meant by it.

 

To answer that question we notice firstly that the tongue is unknown by the subject of the sentence (the person who is speaking), now certainly that could include 'heavenly tongues' but it by no means has to, Farsi is an unknown tongue to me in that I cannot speak it.

 

Also, and this is important to note, if Paul meant a something other then a language of the world, why didn't he use the proper word for such tongues that was in wide use at the time, φθέγγομαι instead he sticks with γλώσσῃ which when used in regards to languages we speak is used exclusively to refer to human language.     

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.  14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.  15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

 

I don't see any reference to 'heavenly' tongues here, again the verses are just saying that if the speaker and hearers do not understand the tongue that is being used it does nothing to edify either the speaker of the hearer.

 

The interesting, but often neglected, thing about 1 Cor 14 is that Paul goes onto to explain the purpose of tongues, v21-22, and he quotes Is 28:11-12 which is a prophecy to the Jews that they would know God's judgement was upon them when the worship of God was performed in languages that they did not know. He says tongues are a sign to unbelievers - that they cannot understand. 

 

The reality is that no text in the Bible demands an understanding that we can utter some sort of ecstatic or heavenly tongue, in fact the Bible seems to speak indirectly against such a practice. Also as we look at the evidence of the examples of tongue speaking by Christians in the NT we notice that invariably they are other human languages of which the speaker has no natural knowledge.   

 

 

I was asking for a specific time when someone spoke in unknown tongues, not someone saying they had done it. There is no such 

 

I am not saying that unknown tongues are useless. They are fine if you are praying alone, but my point was to get around to show that tongues is not the evidence of the Holy Ghost, which no one on here appear to believe, so the point is moot. 

[Sevenseas]

 

I was asking for a specific time when someone spoke in unknown tongues, not someone saying they had done it. There is no such 

 

I am not saying that unknown tongues are useless. They are fine if you are praying alone, but my point was to get around to show that tongues is not the evidence of the Holy Ghost, which no one on here appear to believe, so the point is moot. 

 

 

Donfish:

 

I'm thinking there prob were times...or Paul would not have written that great letter containing instructions on doing things decently and in order?

 

Regarding tongues being evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit:  

 

The Bible does not teach tongues is the evidence for salvation, but one of the many evidences of someone possessing the Holy Spirit. Their patience in striving and expecting is for naught. Paul states rhetorically in 1 Cor.12:29 are all prophets are all apostles and teachers? Answer is NO! Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? again the answer is NO! In Chapter 14 he says he'd rather they prophecy and in vs.5: “I wish you all spoke in tongues but even more that you prophesied. At the beginning of Chpt.12 he states the Lord gives out the gifts as he wills and that they are all different gifts not everyone has the same gift vs.11. the gift of tongues is listed last. In Rom.12 and Eph.4 it is not mentioned at all, giving us the impression that it is a insignificant gift compared to the others. Tongues were never intended to be the common denominator of spiritual gifts to all believers, to make this as such is divisive.

 

Rest HERE

 

Seems Paul states that prophecy (as in forthtelling not foretelling) is the gift with emphasis rather than tongues...in no way debasing any of the gifts, but too much or too little emphasis results in error

[GoldenEagle]

Split the discussion about posting and copying here:

Splite: Tongues... WCF Website issues

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Thanks GE (sorry bout that bro!)

 

Im there! LOL

[His_disciple3]

Praying in tongues and speaking in tongues are two totally different things, as

well as the tongues given at Pentecost is totally different than speaking in

unknown tongues or Angel tongues/language. if there is someone in a church that

can interpret what someone is speaking while speaking in tongues then it is not

an unknown tongue, someone knew that tongue/language, the interpreter must also

be a gift of the Spirit/ not of man's knowledge. the tongues at Pentecost was not ever referred to as unknown tongues, for everyone understood. However the

doctrine that speaking in tongues is THE EVIDENCE of receiving the Holy Ghost,is a very dangerous false doctrine

John 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive

ye the Holy Ghost:

KJV.

 Acts 8:17

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

KJV

nothing about them speaking in tongues here in these two references of receiving the Holy

Ghost, the disciple were told not torejoice, about having powers over demons but to rejoice that their names werewritten in heaven, this was said before the Gifts were given. Acts 4:8, 7:55,9:17-18, 13:9 and 13:52 all references being filled with the Holy Ghost and Not

once was tongues mentioned. In Cor.10 Paul asks a question do all speak in

tongues, to preach that tongues are THE EVIDENCE, then one would have to answer

this question with yes all do speak in tongues, But biblical this is the wrong

Answer the correct answer to Paul's question do all speak in tongues, has to be

no, for in the same thought Paul asks do all interpret? Well if all speak in

tongues and all interpret, then why is there a guide line set forth in scriptures that if

there is no interpreter in Church not to speak in tongues.

Now as for praying in tongues

Jude 17-21

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

KJV

please note here this is not for the Apostles, "ONLY", but the ones that have heard the Apostles, as well as all other gifts of the Spirit, all that have the Spirit should pray in the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost helps us pray.

Edited December 20, 2013 by His_disciple3

[other one]

I need to say something and I hope sincerely it doesn't come across as being puffed up.......    but it has been my lot in life for a number of years to intercede for people in instances of extreme conditions....   some physical some spiritual some just down right dumb.    I've been awaken in the middle of the night knowing I was praying for someone, but words just didn't come out when I did.  It was difficult at first but not so much now.

 

It bothered me for a long time until I called someone to make sure they were alright and found they were about to make a very bad decision that would have really messed with their future.....   but the thing about it was that what they were doing was very very personal and really none of my business.

 

Sometimes I think that God has people who pray for others in unknown tongues just because it's private.......   I have no earthly idea as to why it needs to be done, but then again why should we need to pray for anyone for God knows what we all need.   I don't understand the need for praying for others, but I know we do.

[missmuffet]

I need to say something and I hope sincerely it doesn't come across as being puffed up.......    but it has been my lot in life for a number of years to intercede for people in instances of extreme conditions....   some physical some spiritual some just down right dumb.    I've been awaken in the middle of the night knowing I was praying for someone, but words just didn't come out when I did.  It was difficult at first but not so much now.

 

It bothered me for a long time until I called someone to make sure they were alright and found they were about to make a very bad decision that would have really messed with their future.....   but the thing about it was that what they were doing was very very personal and really none of my business.

 

Sometimes I think that God has people who pray for others in unknown tongues just because it's private.......   I have no earthly idea as to why it needs to be done, but then again why should we need to pray for anyone for God knows what we all need.   I don't understand the need for praying for others, but I know we do.

I would not  call this tongues oo but I think God puts some people on our heart when their is a need.I have done this.The person will come up in my mind and will not leave my mind.I will pray for them.I have found out later that their was a crisis in their life.

[other one]

 

I need to say something and I hope sincerely it doesn't come across as being puffed up.......    but it has been my lot in life for a number of years to intercede for people in instances of extreme conditions....   some physical some spiritual some just down right dumb.    I've been awaken in the middle of the night knowing I was praying for someone, but words just didn't come out when I did.  It was difficult at first but not so much now.

 

It bothered me for a long time until I called someone to make sure they were alright and found they were about to make a very bad decision that would have really messed with their future.....   but the thing about it was that what they were doing was very very personal and really none of my business.

 

Sometimes I think that God has people who pray for others in unknown tongues just because it's private.......   I have no earthly idea as to why it needs to be done, but then again why should we need to pray for anyone for God knows what we all need.   I don't understand the need for praying for others, but I know we do.

I would not  call this tongues oo but I think God puts some people on our heart when their is a need.I have done this.The person will come up in my mind and will not leave my mind.I will pray for them.I have found out later that their was a crisis in their life.

 

what comes out of my mouth isn't any language I ever heard Peep...and sometimes it's completely uncontrollable.      If I didn't know the situation that it all started I'd think I was schizophrenic or something.

[Sevenseas]

Actually it seems just about any spiritual gift can be divisive.  I simply believe what the Bible says and try not to get involved in all the speculation and trying to figure out what is going on.

 

One of the key instructions to practicing any gift in public, is to do so in an orderly manner....so if people act otherwise, they are not following scripture.

 

For example, teaching is actually one of the gifts...if someone were to get up on the platform and act as if they were beside themself and call it teaching, I'm not sure

that would be accepted as actual teaching.  So, I don't know why people tend to accept extremes when it comes to tongues.  That, is part of the reason so many reject

that particular gift.

 

I believe that we are also and should be able to be in control and not controlled by gifts.  I personally have not come across anything in scripture that would lead me to believe it is ok

to loose control or be out of control.

 

As with anything, there are extremes at both ends and somewhere in the middle, is the way things should actually be.