grudges against the churches

[LookingForAnswers]

Lookingforanswers, you're looking for love and acceptance; everybody is looking for that.  Nobody's debating you, and people are allowed to agree with each other on what is being discussed.  If you think about it, this thread isn't about caring about a baby, it's about why people may have grudges against churches.  I agree with you, it's not a good thing for a church to do against an innocent little baby, but as Shiloh pointed out, not all churches are like the one you attended.

 

If you're going to pre-judge everyone as justification just in case people judge you, you are being just as judgemental as you expect everyone else to be.  Where does that get us?  Let's continue to debate the subject matter in love.

 

Anyone who has truly beome born again in Christ Jesus is my brother.  We don't get to choose family, and I may not be what you had in mind for a sister, but I bless you in the Name of Jesus.  Stay blessed.

 

So it is ok for someone who does not know me at all to say I do not care about a baby, even though my own words say otherwise?  How is making claims about my feelings debating the subject?

[Guest Butero]

The only thing I would like to know about the situation is whether or not the couple was speaking against the leadership of the church and causing strife?  Was that the reason they were being shunned, or was it just because their daughter was pregnant but not married?  I would have been willing to stand with them too if they weren't causing division and strife, but something just doesn't seem right about this story. 

[LookingForAnswers]

The only thing I would like to know about the situation is whether or not the couple was speaking against the leadership of the church and causing strife?  Was that the reason they were being shunned, or was it just because their daughter was pregnant but not married?  I would have been willing to stand with them too if they weren't causing division and strife, but something just doesn't seem right about this story. 

 

It started prior to them even asking for the shower, but they did disagree with the leadership and it was then taken to business meeting like most things.  This church had not had a scandal like this in a very long time, if ever and the people really didn't know how to handle it.   The pastor was a great speaker but had little people skills and was not used to the boat getting rocked like this.   It got worse after the business meeting as things were said that were very hurtful (the verse from Deut that was posted above was actually brought up)

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Lookingforanswers, you're looking for love and acceptance; everybody is looking for that.  Nobody's debating you, and people are allowed to agree with each other on what is being discussed.  If you think about it, this thread isn't about caring about a baby, it's about why people may have grudges against churches.  I agree with you, it's not a good thing for a church to do against an innocent little baby, but as Shiloh pointed out, not all churches are like the one you attended.

 

If you're going to pre-judge everyone as justification just in case people judge you, you are being just as judgemental as you expect everyone else to be.  Where does that get us?  Let's continue to debate the subject matter in love.

 

Anyone who has truly beome born again in Christ Jesus is my brother.  We don't get to choose family, and I may not be what you had in mind for a sister, but I bless you in the Name of Jesus.  Stay blessed.

 

So it is ok for someone who does not know me at all to say I do not care about a baby, even though my own words say otherwise?  How is making claims about my feelings debating the subject?

 

I didn't say you didnt' care about the baby.  My point is that this whole thing is being exploited as a platform for smearing the entire church.   You have improperly used the incident with the baby as a platform to condemn the church as a whole and frankly, you don't have a clue about all of the different church run ministries both in and outside churches that do minister  to people who have all kinds of needs.

 

It is sad that this happened, but you needn't try to use it as an instrument to bludgeon the church as a whole.

[Guest Butero]

 

The only thing I would like to know about the situation is whether or not the couple was speaking against the leadership of the church and causing strife?  Was that the reason they were being shunned, or was it just because their daughter was pregnant but not married?  I would have been willing to stand with them too if they weren't causing division and strife, but something just doesn't seem right about this story. 

 

It started prior to them even asking for the shower, but they did disagree with the leadership and it was then taken to business meeting like most things.  This church had not had a scandal like this in a very long time, if ever and the people really didn't know how to handle it.   The pastor was a great speaker but had little people skills and was not used to the boat getting rocked like this.   It got worse after the business meeting as things were said that were very hurtful (the verse from Deut that was posted above was actually brought up)

 

Thanks for helping clear things up.  Not being there, it is hard to know who was at fault.  It sounds like mistakes were made by everyone, including the couple.  The matter didn't stay private between them and the leadership, and people started gossiping and taking sides.  You seem to be more sympathetic towards the couple and others were more sympathetic towards the church leadership.  The whole thing is sad, and it shows how a sinful act can tear a church apart.  Fornication led to pregnancy outside of marriage.  That led to the church leadership being placed in an awkward position of having to protect the congregation from the appearance they are ok with sin, as opposed to loving a person who messed up.  The girl's parents were placed in the position of defending their child, and this led to strife with church leaders.  One sin started the ball rolling, and Satan had a field day destroying a church. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Lookingforanswers, you're looking for love and acceptance; everybody is looking for that.  Nobody's debating you, and people are allowed to agree with each other on what is being discussed.  If you think about it, this thread isn't about caring about a baby, it's about why people may have grudges against churches.  I agree with you, it's not a good thing for a church to do against an innocent little baby, but as Shiloh pointed out, not all churches are like the one you attended.

 

If you're going to pre-judge everyone as justification just in case people judge you, you are being just as judgemental as you expect everyone else to be.  Where does that get us?  Let's continue to debate the subject matter in love.

 

Anyone who has truly beome born again in Christ Jesus is my brother.  We don't get to choose family, and I may not be what you had in mind for a sister, but I bless you in the Name of Jesus.  Stay blessed.

 

So it is ok for someone who does not know me at all to say I do not care about a baby, even though my own words say otherwise?  How is making claims about my feelings debating the subject?

 

I didn't say you didnt' care about the baby.  My point is that this whole thing is being exploited as a platform for smearing the entire church.   You have improperly used the incident with the baby as a platform to condemn the church as a whole and frankly, you don't have a clue about all of the different church run ministries both in and outside churches that do minister  to people who have all kinds of needs.

 

It is sad that this happened, but you needn't try to use it as an instrument to bludgeon the church as a whole.

 

I think all of us have stories about injustices we have witnessed in church.  The question is how we should handle them.  Should we leave the church, or remain and accept that people are human and will make mistakes, not only in committing sin, but in how they handle things when someone does sin.  I can't claim to have always handled things right, so why expect others to be perfect?  It is hard to know what to do sometimes. 

[Willa]

Pursue peace with all men, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any ROOT OF BITTERNESS springing up cause trouble, and BY THIS MANY BECOME DEFILED; Hebrews 12:14-15 NKJV

When we cannot forgive in our own strength, and we know we are lost because God said : for if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you your trespasses. Then we must ask God to fill us with His loving forgiveness which hung on that cross saying "father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Ask God to forgive you for your own sinfulness and fill you with His Spirit and give you the power to obey Him because you can't do it in your own strength.

I say this in all humility because I found it the only way out of my own bitterness and hatred. It doesn't destroy the people we can't forgive. It destroys us.

Somewhere the Bible also warns us against taking up the offences of others; I can't find it right now. But it is a good practice. When our unforgiveness becomes a root of bitterness it hurts the people we love the most. It taints every aspect of our lives and chokes out our love. Our cause may be very righteous; it is still wrong to hold blame and bitterness. Sometimes the righteous bitterness we have is worse in God's eyes than the original evil we condemn, though that seems hard to imagine. We fail to realize how evil our own sinful nature is and to what lengths God went to redeem us. We don't deserve His mercy either. We don't deserve His love. But He does it for that very reason. God came not for the righteous but for sinners.

[Guest]

A Baby's

 

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

 

Trust

 

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

 

~

 

Lookingforanswers, you're looking for love and acceptance; everybody is looking for that.  Nobody's debating you, and people are allowed to agree with each other on what is being discussed.  If you think about it, this thread isn't about caring about a baby, it's about why people may have grudges against churches.  I agree with you, it's not a good thing for a church to do against an innocent little baby, but as Shiloh pointed out, not all churches are like the one you attended.

 

If you're going to pre-judge everyone as justification just in case people judge you, you are being just as judgemental as you expect everyone else to be.  Where does that get us?  Let's continue to debate the subject matter in love.

 

Anyone who has truly beome born again in Christ Jesus is my brother.  We don't get to choose family, and I may not be what you had in mind for a sister, but I bless you in the Name of Jesus.  Stay blessed.

 

So it is ok for someone who does not know me at all to say I do not care about a baby, even though my own words say otherwise?  How is making claims about my feelings debating the subject?

 

 

The Subject~!

 

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Colossians 1:18-22

 

~

 

Prejudged

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

And Condemned

 

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

 

Because You Are Treasured

 

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

 

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. Matthew 13:44-46

 

And Worth The Price

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19
 

Beloved

 

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:20

 

~

 

The

 

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

 

Gifts

 

See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
 

Rejoice evermore.
 

Pray without ceasing.
 

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1 Thessalonians 5:15-18

 

Of God

 

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

 

And I Praise Him So

 

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. Psalms 133

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[*Zion*]

 

Lookingforanswers, you're looking for love and acceptance; everybody is looking for that.  Nobody's debating you, and people are allowed to agree with each other on what is being discussed.  If you think about it, this thread isn't about caring about a baby, it's about why people may have grudges against churches.  I agree with you, it's not a good thing for a church to do against an innocent little baby, but as Shiloh pointed out, not all churches are like the one you attended.

 

If you're going to pre-judge everyone as justification just in case people judge you, you are being just as judgemental as you expect everyone else to be.  Where does that get us?  Let's continue to debate the subject matter in love.

 

Anyone who has truly beome born again in Christ Jesus is my brother.  We don't get to choose family, and I may not be w111002hat you had in mind for a sister, but I bless you in the Name of Jesus.  Stay blessed.

 

So it is ok for someone who does not know me at all to say I do not care about a baby, even though my own words say otherwise?  How is making claims about my feelings debating the subject?

 

 

You misunderstand.  We all care about the baby - including you, and we all know that.  However, this discussion is about grudges against the church, and Shiloh feels that you have not justified your claims against the whole church using just this one example.  Maybe there are 1000s of examples.  But how would Shiloh know that?  He's had good experiences at church, and you have had (so far as we know) one majorly negative experience at church.  At the moment we all seem to be mind readers, plunging into each other's thoughts  through what we're all typing, but that simply isn't the case.

 

The question in the OP was what should we our response be to this grudge?  I will offer mine and ask: do you really think that every single church out there is just as bad?  You can ask Shiloh of he honestly thinks that there are no problems in the churches today?

 

My feeling is that the church is riddled with imperfections because we as the church are imperfect, and yet we must not bring it down even more with attacks, but build it up with love.  Love covers a multitude of wrongs.  Love the church you felt you had to leave.  Love the Pastor.  Love the church as a whole.  My kids are not perfect, and I don't for one second embrace their wrongs, but I love them.

 

Peace to you.

[Qnts2]

Pursue peace with all men, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any ROOT OF BITTERNESS springing up cause trouble, and BY THIS MANY BECOME DEFILED; Hebrews 12:14-15 NKJV

When we cannot forgive in our own strength, and we know we are lost because God said : for if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you your trespasses. Then we must ask God to fill us with His loving forgiveness which hung on that cross saying "father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Ask God to forgive you for your own sinfulness and fill you with His Spirit and give you the power to obey Him because you can't do it in your own strength.

I say this in all humility because I found it the only way out of my own bitterness and hatred. It doesn't destroy the people we can't forgive. It destroys us.

Somewhere the Bible also warns us against taking up the offences of others; I can't find it right now. But it is a good practice. When our unforgiveness becomes a root of bitterness it hurts the people we love the most. It taints every aspect of our lives and chokes out our love. Our cause may be very righteous; it is still wrong to hold blame and bitterness. Sometimes the righteous bitterness we have is worse in God's eyes than the original evil we condemn, though that seems hard to imagine. We fail to realize how evil our own sinful nature is and to what lengths God went to redeem us. We don't deserve His mercy either. We don't deserve His love. But He does it for that very reason. God came not for the righteous but for sinners.

 

I just want to comment, more as an informational thing.

 

There is a teaching which has been going around, which uses the term 'root of bitterness' as a bludgeoning tool against Christians. If someone disagrees with a theology, they are said to have a 'root of bitterness' to embarras them into silence, or alienate them. If a person is upset about an injustice, they are said to have a 'root of bitterness'. If a person identifies leadership especially, or something wrong, they are said to have a root of bitterness.

 

Just be aware that the terminology 'root of bitterness' is used by some in a very manipulative and hurtful way, so often, that it has become their tool and catch phrase used to silence and marginalize others.

 

On the otherhand, can a person who was wronged, become angry? Of course. It is a natural reaction. But if they hold onto that anger, not turning the situation over to God, then that anger starts to effect them in such a way, they become in bondage to that anger. That is true. However, not forgiving, and not releasing that anger, is not the unforgivable sin. It makes the person involved less happy and with less joy, so less effective, but again, in light of Jesus death for all sins, unforgiveness is not an unforgivable sin. Lack of forgiveness, is tied to the Day of Atonement in the Mosaic covenant, but that is quite different then what we have received in the New Covenant.