Guest DRS81 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. No, you are taking Eze 18 out of context. Adam isn't the father of the human race, God the Father is. God the Father is the creation of humanity. Eze 18 is talking about human not bearing sins for another human, but we're talking about Jesus Christ here, God! Adam sinned against GOD, and since Adam was the first seed then 1+1=2. We're all guilty of sin because we sinned against GOD, not human to human. Why do you think Jesus said in John Chapter 3 that we all must be born again? First in your mothers womb, then of the holy spirit. In regards to babies being in sin well....Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine. But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch. Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. Not to cut in but, in Adam all die. In fact our Lord said unless you become BORN AGAIN you will not see the Kingdom of God. If the Apple tree is corrupt, the Apples will be too. It is a necessity to get out of Adam and into Christ. Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. That's true, but, that doesn't mean that the apples are guilty of the sin of the apple. If I commit a sin is my child guilty for that sin? The God said no through Ezekiel. I agree that if one is corrupt in nature then the offspring will be too. However, that doesn't mean that the offspring is guilty of the sin of the parent. This I agree with. Hopefully I am not coming off as saying children are guilty of the same sin Adam committed. My point is it sadly does not matter because as our original head, Adam's fall affected all of us and we are feeling the repercussions from it just as if we did it ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I mean I don't believe in the doctrine. It can't traced back to the apostles and the Scriptures refute it. The doctrine of original sin says that everyone is guilty because of Adam's sin. The Scriptures don't teach that. That teaching came from Augustine. But everyone is guilty of sin, and sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. We all fall short of the glory of God, and the cross is the path to forgiveness. The scriptures do teach this. That's why it's called the fall of man Butch. Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. Not to cut in but, in Adam all die. In fact our Lord said unless you become BORN AGAIN you will not see the Kingdom of God. If the Apple tree is corrupt, the Apples will be too. It is a necessity to get out of Adam and into Christ. Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. That's true, but, that doesn't mean that the apples are guilty of the sin of the apple. If I commit a sin is my child guilty for that sin? The God said no through Ezekiel. I agree that if one is corrupt in nature then the offspring will be too. However, that doesn't mean that the offspring is guilty of the sin of the parent. This I agree with. Hopefully I am not coming off as saying children are guilty of the same sin Adam committed. My point is it sadly does not matter because as our original head, Adam's fall affected all of us and we are feeling the repercussions from it just as if we did it ourselves. The doctrine of Original sin says that everyone is guilty of Adam's sin. In other words, if a person was born and never sinned at all, they would still be guilty of sin because Adam sinned. The doctrine of Original Sin says that a infant that is born is guilty of Adam's sin when it is born. As I said an infant doesn't know sin and cannot commit sin. They don't know good from evil. I believe one becomes a sinner when they sin. There's also the issue of when sin is imputed to a person. Even though one may sin, that sin may not be imputed to them. Paul said that where there is no Law sin is not imputed. He went on to say that before he knew the Law he wasn't condemned by the Law, but, when he knew the Law it condemned him. I think from that one can logically conclude that a child who doesn't know right from wrong could sin (without knowledge) and not be guilty before God because the sin is not known to the child. I'm not going to argue that point because I think it's in God hands. However, Paul did say, 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14 KJV) Death, the result of sin did come on all for all sinned,however, Paul said that sin is not imputed where there is no Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. No, you are taking Eze 18 out of context. Adam isn't the father of the human race, God the Father is. God the Father is the creation of humanity. Eze 18 is talking about human not bearing sins for another human, but we're talking about Jesus Christ here, God! Adam sinned against GOD, and since Adam was the first seed then 1+1=2. We're all guilty of sin because we sinned against GOD, not human to human. Why do you think Jesus said in John Chapter 3 that we all must be born again? First in your mothers womb, then of the holy spirit. In regards to babies being in sin well....Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. No, I'm not taking Ezekiel out of context. It is God speaking through Ezekiel, He said, that the father shall not suffer for the sins of the son. Everyone shall die for his own sins. Regarding Adam being the father of the human race, I was not speaking of the creator. God also created the Jews, yet, Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews, I was using the term in the same sense. Regarding babies, what David said in Psalm 51 was about himself. He didn't say anything about anyone else being born a sinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Again, sorry Butch. That is simply a pointless way to argue from scripture. Scripture is God breathed and profitable for the man or woman of God to build us up. Paul was writing about more than himself. You can't handle scripture like that. I presented scripture and you just brush it off without any real rebuttal from scripture of your own. Your argument boils down to "well, you've shown it to me, but he was just speaking about himself." That is just unacceptable and will lead to nothing but pointless arguing and strife. 1Ti 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. No it's not pointless. You're running all over the Scriptures grabbing a sentence here and a sentence there and saying see the Bible teaches xyz. That is a pointless way to argue from the Scriptures. All of Scripture is written in a certain context, taking a passage from it's context and randomly applying it as one pleases does not show what Scripture teaches. If Paul or any other writer say "I" then he is speaking of himself. Whether or not his statement can be applied to others must be determined from the Scriptures. However, to just take a passage that say "I" and claim it's talking about all Christians is taking it out of context. For instance Peter said, 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: (2Pe 1:17-19 KJV) Peter said "we". Does this apply to all Christians because Peter said we? No, he's talking about himself, James, and John. What about John? KJV 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1Jo 1:1 KJV) John says "we" does that all Christians? Have all Christians seen Jesus, heard and handled him? No, John is talking about the apostles. Just because something in the Scriptures applies to one Christian that doesn't mean it applies to all. We have to look at it and see if it is applicable universally to Christians and if so how? I mean, Paul called the Corinthians carnal. He said that to Christians does that mean every Christian is carnal. No, we have to look at what is there and determine whether or not it's applicable as a universal principle or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,073 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 27,823 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. I would say that the Baby has not sinned, but because he is a human with a human father he is under the curse of Adam for his sin and will die. Adam corrupted the entire world and maybe the whole creation, for the whole creation groans waiting for the human sons of God to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 No, I'm not taking Ezekiel out of context. It is God speaking through Ezekiel, He said, that the father shall not suffer for the sins of the son. Everyone shall die for his own sins. Regarding Adam being the father of the human race, I was not speaking of the creator. God also created the Jews, yet, Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews, I was using the term in the same sense. Regarding babies, what David said in Psalm 51 was about himself. He didn't say anything about anyone else being born a sinner. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across in this thread. What specifically are you trying to prove here. Before Adam sinned everything was right with God. Adam sinning was against God, not Joe Smith 2,000 years later. Sin is a word that describes separation from man and God. That separation was permanent. Sin was inherited from Adam, therefore it is genetic. You inherit it just like you would inherit any genetic defect. Babies can be born with HIV infected from their parents. Likewise all offspring of the first parents Adam and Eve are born infected with sin. For example, Adam and Eve give birth to Joe and Barbara. Joe and Barbara give birth to Frank and Nicole. Frank and Nicole give birth to Butch5 and DRS81. Now Adam's sin itself might not have anything to do with Butch5, but the reality is that Butch5 still lives in a fallen world because of Adams sin. And since Butch5 lives in a fallen world he also is condemned already and needs the salvation of the cross. Adam's sin started the downward spiral. All it takes is one sin to rebel against God, and Adam was the first. Adam passed that sin on to his children, and his children passed that on and on etc etc....Eze 18:19-20 is talking about not bearing and suffering for other peoples sins. Jesus Christ is the only person that has that job, to bear and suffer for our sins. But that doesn't mean sin in general is not in the world. In regards to the baby, the baby is born into a sinful world, but there is also an age of accountability of good and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 No, I'm not taking Ezekiel out of context. It is God speaking through Ezekiel, He said, that the father shall not suffer for the sins of the son. Everyone shall die for his own sins. Regarding Adam being the father of the human race, I was not speaking of the creator. God also created the Jews, yet, Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews, I was using the term in the same sense. Regarding babies, what David said in Psalm 51 was about himself. He didn't say anything about anyone else being born a sinner. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get across in this thread. What specifically are you trying to prove here. Before Adam sinned everything was right with God. Adam sinning was against God, not Joe Smith 2,000 years later. Sin is a word that describes separation from man and God. That separation was permanent. Sin was inherited from Adam, therefore it is genetic. You inherit it just like you would inherit any genetic defect. Babies can be born with HIV infected from their parents. Likewise all offspring of the first parents Adam and Eve are born infected with sin. For example, Adam and Eve give birth to Joe and Barbara. Joe and Barbara give birth to Frank and Nicole. Frank and Nicole give birth to Butch5 and DRS81. Now Adam's sin itself might not have anything to do with Butch5, but the reality is that Butch5 still lives in a fallen world because of Adams sin. And since Butch5 lives in a fallen world he also is condemned already and needs the salvation of the cross. Adam's sin started the downward spiral. All it takes is one sin to rebel against God, and Adam was the first. Adam passed that sin on to his children, and his children passed that on and on etc etc....Eze 18:19-20 is talking about not bearing and suffering for other peoples sins. Jesus Christ is the only person that has that job, to bear and suffer for our sins. But that doesn't mean sin in general is not in the world. In regards to the baby, the baby is born into a sinful world, but there is also an age of accountability of good and evil. There's a difference between being born into a sinful world and being born guilty of sin. The doctrine says that one is born Guilty of Adam's sin. If that is the case then the instant an infant is born it is guilty. That is not what the Scriptures teach. The passage in Ezekiel says that everyone will die for his own sin. I'm not gonna die for Adam's sin. I wasn't born guilty of Adam's sin. I was born with the same nature as Adam but not guilty of "His" sin. It's like if I committed a crime my children will not be guilty of that crime, they are my children and have the same nature as me. They may commit their own crime but they are not held accountable for mine. It's the same with sin, God isn't going to look at people on judgment day and, well George, Adam sinned so you're going into the fire. Sorry, Jane, Adam sinned, So you're going into the fire. Everyone who goes into the fire will go there for their sins and not someone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 31, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yes, everyone is guilty of sin when they sin. An infant that is two days old has not sinned. Original sin says that this infant is guilty for the sin that Adam committed. The Scriptures teach that everyone is guilty for their own sins, not the sins of others. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV) If Adam is the father of the human race then no one but Adam shall bear his sins. I would say that the Baby has not sinned, but because he is a human with a human father he is under the curse of Adam for his sin and will die. Adam corrupted the entire world and maybe the whole creation, for the whole creation groans waiting for the human sons of God to come. I agree that people are born under the curse. Paul said that death reigned from Adam to Moses in though they did not sin after the manner of Adam's sin. I just don't see anything in Scripture that says that people are born condemned as sinners. As I said, that teaching doesn't appear in church history until Augustine. That alone is enough to show me that it's not what the Scriptures teach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 .. I will agree that babies are born innocent, but that doesn't change the fact they are born into a fallen world. I'm not gonna die for Adam's sin. I wasn't born guilty of Adam's sin. I was born with the same nature as Adam but not guilty of "His" sin. I can agree with this statement, but you are still gonna die one day because Adam originally brought sin into the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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