A little freaked out

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

What is not clear is that it sounds as if you believe one does not need to confess that they have a sin problem ...

 

Why would anyone come to Christianity if they didn't believe sin was a problem?

Wouldn't they instead become a Buddhist where sin is considered to be just an illusion, or at worst, a "moral error"?

 

 

If the OT prophesies a Messiah, and the NT describes Jesus, in such a fashion as to be compared to the OT prophesies, and proves that Jesus is the OT prophesied Messiah, then it is a necessity to come to Jesus the Messiah. Jesus is the Truth. When I first accepted Jesus, it was because I was convinced He was the Messiah, and the Truth.  

 

Buddhism is not the truth.

 

What is the problem with sin? Well, it is disobedience to God, but people are dead in their sins. If a person is dead, what do they need? Life. Jesus repeatedly said that He came to give life. This I learned after I was saved. All people are sinners, and dead in their sin, in need of life. If the penalty of sin is death, Jesus had to solve that issue before giving life. So Jesus paid for all sins first, That way a person who had received life wouldn't lose it everytime they sinned. Then Jesus gave those who believed life.

 

Matthew 7:14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

 

Luke 18:30 is interesting. The 'age to come' is a common expression in Judaism. The 'age to come' can refer to several different time periods. Referencing the 'age to come' can refer to the Messianic age, which Christian call the millenium. The age to come can also be 'Gan Eden', the garden of Eden, which in Christianity might compare to the New heaven and New Earth. So, this promise of life, refers to life in the age to come. Jesus came to give life.  

[enoob57]

There are many scripture verses which tell us the workings of salvation.

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

We are also told that there is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus.

 

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

So what is repentance? The Hebrew word is shuv, which means 'to turn'. So when God showed me that Jesus was the Messiah, I turned away from unbelief to Jesus Who is the Messiah.

Repentance is foundationed in the reality of senses- to see as God See's, to hear as God hears,

to feel as God feels, to smell as God smells, to taste as God tastes... in order to do this we

must be made able by new being (Birth of and by God)-

John 3:3-7

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can

he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be

born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom

of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which

is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee,

***********Ye must be born again.************

KJV

Many, many people do not realize that that there is only one way to Life In Jesus and that this

Life 'IS' sourced in Him by the power of The Holy Spirit... of all intimacies known to the

creation of God all will agree marriage is the most intimate of all. This is the merging of two

into one. Those of the first birth have merged into the lies of this place and are self authorized

to decide what truth is~ when in fact truth has the eternal decision of God and cannot be altered.

This first birth person will receive a word such as Jesus and a form by their own self authorization

what that Name means. The second born person will be given a new being of capacity and existence to

be reformed to The Word of God (Bible) into what Jesus truly 'IS'...

Point being when The Word is being preached or the native in deepest darkest part of the

jungle observes the preaching of creation one thing occurs- There 'IS' 'The Being" that 'IS' greater

than we can comprehend and that we do not know Him! This is initial belief and one cannot have this

belief without the accompaniment of desire to open your heart to finding Him this is the drawing of

God to Himself because of His Person of Love. Isa 55:6-11 Fully culminating at the Cross Of Jesus...

John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

KJV

When we respond to this draw of God repentance is the realization of that all of what we are and

what we are surrounded in is filled with error and there is no resource within ourselves to correct

that error and God rejects what we are in this error and we enter into a God given reality of the

need of total abandonment of all we are up and to this realization of Truth... this is repentance

of world and flesh and dead spirit the I, me, myself of first birth!

Here are some examples of true repentance:

The Israelites: Judg 10:15-16. David: 2 Sam 12:13. Manasseh: 2 Chron 33:12-13. Job: Job 42:6.

Nineveh: Jonah 3:5-8. Matt 12:41. Peter: Matt 26:75. Zaccheus: Luke 19:8.

The thief on the cross: Luke 23:40-41. The Corinthians: 2 Cor 7:9.

Here are some examples of false repentance:

Saul: 1 Sam 15:24-30. Ahab: 1 Kings 21:27-29. Judas Iscariot: Matt 27:3-5.

Love, Steven

[Qnts2]

 

There are many scripture verses which tell us the workings of salvation.

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

We are also told that there is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus.

 

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

So what is repentance? The Hebrew word is shuv, which means 'to turn'. So when God showed me that Jesus was the Messiah, I turned away from unbelief to Jesus Who is the Messiah.

Repentance is foundationed in the reality of senses- to see as God See's, to hear as God hears,

to feel as God feels, to smell as God smells, to taste as God tastes... in order to do this we

must be made able by new being (Birth of and by God)-

John 3:3-7

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can

he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be

born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom

of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which

is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee,

***********Ye must be born again.************

KJV

Many, many people do not realize that that there is only one way to Life In Jesus and that this

Life 'IS' sourced in Him by the power of The Holy Spirit... of all intimacies known to the

creation of God all will agree marriage is the most intimate of all. This is the merging of two

into one. Those of the first birth have merged into the lies of this place and are self authorized

to decide what truth is~ when in fact truth has the eternal decision of God and cannot be altered.

This first birth person will receive a word such as Jesus and a form by their own self authorization

what that Name means. The second born person will be given a new being of capacity and existence to

be reformed to The Word of God (Bible) into what Jesus truly 'IS'...

Point being when The Word is being preached or the native in deepest darkest part of the

jungle observes the preaching of creation one thing occurs- There 'IS' 'The Being" that 'IS' greater

than we can comprehend and that we do not know Him! This is initial belief and one cannot have this

belief without the accompaniment of desire to open your heart to finding Him this is the drawing of

God to Himself because of His Person of Love. Isa 55:6-11 Fully culminating at the Cross Of Jesus...

John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

KJV

When we respond to this draw of God repentance is the realization of that all of what we are and

what we are surrounded in is filled with error and there is no resource within ourselves to correct

that error and God rejects what we are in this error and we enter into a God given reality of the

need of total abandonment of all we are up and to this realization of Truth... this is repentance

of world and flesh and dead spirit the I, me, myself of first birth!

Here are some examples of true repentance:

The Israelites: Judg 10:15-16. David: 2 Sam 12:13. Manasseh: 2 Chron 33:12-13. Job: Job 42:6.

Nineveh: Jonah 3:5-8. Matt 12:41. Peter: Matt 26:75. Zaccheus: Luke 19:8.

The thief on the cross: Luke 23:40-41. The Corinthians: 2 Cor 7:9.

Here are some examples of false repentance:

Saul: 1 Sam 15:24-30. Ahab: 1 Kings 21:27-29. Judas Iscariot: Matt 27:3-5.

Love, Steven

 

 

Just a few comments.

 

In my view, salvation is not just the forgiveness of sins, but is actually moving from death to life, or being reborn. We do not do the 'reborn'. It is only thru the work of Jesus that this is made available, so I like to say that in accepting Jesus, we receive what Jesus accomplished by his death (forgiveness of sins) and resurrection (born again, or becoming a new creation). We do not need to fully understand what Jesus death and resurrection means and does at the moment of salvation, but I believe that is a lifetime of learning, ending when we see Him face to face. 

 

The Nazarenes have an interesting concept that I haven't found taught regularly in any other denomination. That thought is Entire Sanctification. Others teach a 'Continuing Sanctification'. I see the truth as a mix of both. When we receive new life, become a new creation, are born again, we indeed become something totally new. Another term is being of Adam and then at re-birth we become of Jesus. We are entirely set aside (sanctified) for Gods use.  

 

But, even though we are set aside for Gods use, I have also have found that our minds are not erased, so we tend to think the way we did in many ways to the way we thought prior to being born again. All that we learned in order to satisfy our needs are still part of the way we think, so continuing sanctification is the gradual process through reading scripture, trials, and experiences which God uses to bring our thoughts and mind, into a conformity with God. Each experience changes us and brings an aspect of us more inline with Jesus and reliant on God for that aspect rather then using our former methods learned before salvation. 

 

I do not see Lordship is something which is tied to salvation, but Lordship starting with entire sanctification and then as continuing sanctification.

 

So,

[ajchurney]

Entire Sanctification is not a true doctrine as I understand it is taught by the Nazarene church. The sin nature can only be eradicated by physical death or translation. The NT offers no experience by which one can, in one moment, completely eliminate the sinful nature. In fact, I believe this idea runs contrary to virtually all of the instruction in the NT regarding sanctification and the walk in the Spirit. This is consistently presented as an ongoing process and battle. Perfectionism as some gift of the Spirit that keeps one automatically in a sinless state is simply not reality. To walk in the Spirit is a moment by moment choice and submission. This is not to say that victory and overcoming evil are not available. Christians do not "have to " sin continually. I am simply saying that there is no single profound decision post-salvation, no second, third, or fourth "definite work of grace" that suddenly ends our battle with sin. Winning the war with sin is an every day, every hour battle of decision making and surrender to Christ, not the attaining of some mystical state of sinless bliss. 

Fight the good fight!

Andy

[Qnts2]

Entire Sanctification is not a true doctrine as I understand it is taught by the Nazarene church. The sin nature can only be eradicated by physical death or translation. The NT offers no experience by which one can, in one moment, completely eliminate the sinful nature. In fact, I believe this idea runs contrary to virtually all of the instruction in the NT regarding sanctification and the walk in the Spirit. This is consistently presented as an ongoing process and battle. Perfectionism as some gift of the Spirit that keeps one automatically in a sinless state is simply not reality. To walk in the Spirit is a moment by moment choice and submission. This is not to say that victory and overcoming evil are not available. Christians do not "have to " sin continually. I am simply saying that there is no single profound decision post-salvation, no second, third, or fourth "definite work of grace" that suddenly ends our battle with sin. Winning the war with sin is an every day, every hour battle of decision making and surrender to Christ, not the attaining of some mystical state of sinless bliss. 

Fight the good fight!

Andy

 

So you emphasize continuing sanctification.

 

While I do not believe exactly as the Nazarenes believe, I do believe there is an entire sanctification at the time of the re-birth. We were the 'old man' and the 'old man' is dead. We are new creations, not partially re-furbished creations. Sanctification means to be set apart, is does not mean 'never able to sin again'.

 

I also believe there is a continuing sanctification, and therefore a continuing work.

 

As far as the first work, salvation which is really much more then many think of it as. There is a second work, which is when we first realize that we can not accomplish Gods work by our own intellect, efforts, or striving towards what we believe is perfectionism, but rather the reality that we can not do Gods work by our own efforts, and are dependent on God. The second work is understanding and receiving empowerment from God. The third work is a basic understanding of who we are as new creations or as some say, identification with the cross (old man dead, and co-crucified with Jesus).         

[other one]

 People keep mentioning the Nazarene doctrine of sanctification.....   I thought it might be a good thing to post it.

 

 

13. We believe that [entire] sanctification is [that] the [act] work of God[, subsequent to regeneration, by] which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

14. We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace.

We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the divine impulse to grow in grace as a Christlike disciple. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor, one’s witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost.

Participating in the means of grace, especially the fellowship, disciplines, and sacraments of the Church, believers grow in grace and in wholehearted love to God and neighbor.

(Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Malachi 3:2-3; Matthew 3:11-12; Luke 3:16-17; John 7:37-39; 14:15-23; 17:6-20; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 15:8-9; Romans 6:11-13, 19; 8:1-4, 8-14; 12:1-2; 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1; Galatians 2:20; 5:16-25; Ephesians 3:14-21; 5:17-18, 25-27; Philippians 3:10-15; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 4:9-11; 10:10-17; 12:1-2; 13:12; 1 John 1:7, 9)

(“Christian perfection,” “perfect love”: Deuteronomy 30:6; Matthew 5:43-48; 22:37-40; Romans 12:9-21; 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 13; Philippians 3:10-15; Hebrews 6:1; 1 John 4:17-18

“Heart purity”: Matthew 5:8; Acts 15:8-9; 1 Peter 1:22; 1 John 3:3

“Baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit”: Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Malachi 3:2-3; Matthew 3:11-12; Luke 3:16-17; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 15:8-9

“Fullness of the blessing”: Romans 15:29

“Christian holiness”: Matthew 5:1-7:29; John 15:1-11; Romans 12:1-15:3; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 4:17-5:20; Philippians 1:9-11; 3:12-15; Colossians 2:20-3:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:7-8; 5:23; 2 Timothy 2:19-22; Hebrews 10:19-25; 12:14; 13:20-21; 1 Peter 1:15-16; 2 Peter 1:1-11; 3:18; Jude 20-21)

 

[EnochBethany]

 

 People keep mentioning the Nazarene doctrine of sanctification.....   I thought it might be a good thing to post it.

 

 

13. We believe that [entire] sanctification is [that] the [act] work of God[, subsequent to regeneration, by] which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

[EnochBethany]

So what about Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses with regards to salvation?

There is no discrimination.

All persons are lost because of their sin.

All persons are offered salvation the same way:

 

"By grace you have been saved through faith, & that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast."

 

There is none other name under Heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved -- other than the name of Jesus.

 

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

 

Of course if you have "Jesus" defined as something other than who he is, then you are not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, but in a figment of the imagination.  Jesus the Mexican mechanic cannot save you, & trusting him as Savior is idolatry.  Likewise, neither is Jesus defined as Michael the Archangel, something other than YHWH, the Savior.  Neither is the alleged brother of satan the Savior, nor some god in a polytheist religion (like Mormanism).

 

So what about the Jews? What about the Booga-Booga tribe in Borne?

Better to ask, what about the person sitting in front of the computer monitor now!

[other one]

 

So what about the Jews? What about the Booga-Booga tribe in Borne?

Better to ask, what about the person sitting in front of the computer monitor now!

 

Both questions are important and it's not good to hide from the first behind the second.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 People keep mentioning the Nazarene doctrine of sanctification.....   I thought it might be a good thing to post it.

 

 

13. We believe that [entire] sanctification is [that] the [act] work of God[, subsequent to regeneration, by] which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

 

 

Do you not believe that the 'old man' is dead? Or that we are new creations?   

 

What of this scripture?

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Again, entire sanctification is not sinless perfection. It is Gal 2:20. It is no longer being in Adam, but now being in Messiah.