Sex scandals in the Church

[nebula]

hmmm...seems it might be a bit of both...

 

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever

 

so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.

 

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

 

A child should do things out of love, but the reality is that the fear of punishment also has to come into play.  Anyone that suggest that a child would 100% of the time obey their parents without the fear of a punishment is too old and has forgotten their childhood.

 

As I said, I don't deny that - but fear if terror overrides love, you truly are not close to the heart of God. Actually you can't; who runs to that which they are afraid of?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

That means that this child obeys his parents in order to avoid punishment.  Fear is the motivating factor

 

 

I am surprised you do not know what God Himself says regarding what emotion we should have towards Him.

 

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."  Deut 6:5

 

and Jesus said the same thing in more than one gospel

 

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  Matt. 22:37

 

 

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  John 3:16

 

If God's love casts out fear, then why on earth would anyone believe and teach otherwise?  Stating that fear is the motivating factor behind obedience, illustrates

a harsh and unloving parent and a harsh and unloving God.

 

I loved my father and wanted to please him.  

 

We have a lopsided idea of Who God is if we believe He wants us to serve Him out of fear.

 

How on earth can you LOVE someone out of fear?  It makes no sense at all.

 

The Bible itself states that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.  I gave scriptures that show that we are to fear God, and even gives specific examples of people receiving punishment the Bible says was given to us as examples.  Everyone just ignores them. 

[Guest Butero]

 

hmmm...seems it might be a bit of both...

 

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever

 

so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.

 

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

 

A child should do things out of love, but the reality is that the fear of punishment also has to come into play.  Anyone that suggest that a child would 100% of the time obey their parents without the fear of a punishment is too old and has forgotten their childhood.

 

As I said, I don't deny that - but fear if terror overrides love, you truly are not close to the heart of God. Actually you can't; who runs to that which they are afraid of?

 

Knowing that the only way to be forgiven is to confess my sins to God, I would run to him to try to get right, because I was afraid of his wrath.  It is not running to God for forgiveness that should scare people, but the fear of not doing so and feeling the back of his hand, as the old song goes.  "May the good Lord never show you the back of his hand."  I am not sure who sings it, but it makes a good point. 

[nebula]

It sounds to me like you fear God's judgement more than you actually "fear God".

 

Everything I've read about the word in Hebrew translated as "fear" has a meaning closer to "awe" than "terror". This kind of awe is an overwhelming sense of wonder, majesty, power, magnitude, and greatness, the kind that leaves you feeling small an vulnerable.

 

When you are overwhelmed by that sense of presence, you don't want to fall prey to temptation, and often the temptation appears less appealing.

[LookingForAnswers]

It sounds to me like you fear God's judgement more than you actually "fear God".

 

Everything I've read about the word in Hebrew translated as "fear" has a meaning closer to "awe" than "terror". This kind of awe is an overwhelming sense of wonder, majesty, power, magnitude, and greatness, the kind that leaves you feeling small an vulnerable.

 

When you are overwhelmed by that sense of presence, you don't want to fall prey to temptation, and often the temptation appears less appealing.

 

I  think it really comes down to a comparison of our own childhoods.  I loved my parents and with most things I did them out of that love.  But there were also times when I choose not do do something out of fear of the consequences.  That is part of being human.  Even as an adult I follow most laws out of something that is not fear (just not sure what the right word is) but there are certain laws that I follow out of fear of the punishment, speed limits being the one that comes to mind right off the bat.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

 

 

That means that this child obeys his parents in order to avoid punishment.  Fear is the motivating factor

 

 

I am surprised you do not know what God Himself says regarding what emotion we should have towards Him.

 

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."  Deut 6:5

 

and Jesus said the same thing in more than one gospel

 

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  Matt. 22:37

 

 

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."  John 3:16

 

If God's love casts out fear, then why on earth would anyone believe and teach otherwise?  Stating that fear is the motivating factor behind obedience, illustrates

a harsh and unloving parent and a harsh and unloving God.

 

I loved my father and wanted to please him.  

 

We have a lopsided idea of Who God is if we believe He wants us to serve Him out of fear.

 

How on earth can you LOVE someone out of fear?  It makes no sense at all.

 

The Bible itself states that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.  I gave scriptures that show that we are to fear God, and even gives specific examples of people receiving punishment the Bible says was given to us as examples.  Everyone just ignores them. 

 

 

 

Yes...the BEGINNING of wisdom...it is not the end of wisdom.  True wisdom would include actual knowledge of God and the fact that first and foremost...God is LOVE...not fear

 

Love is actually one of His attributes.

 

Fear is not.

 

You mention the back of God's hand as being included in a song....the problem with using an expression not found in scripture, is that it gives a distorted view of what God says about Himself

 

It's just not a good idea to mix people's conceptions with the Bible and then think an actual truth is being discussed IMO

[Sevenseas]

However, and getting back to the op.....a desire to avoid temptation is a far better way to address sin then being afraid of repercussions.

 

A desire to avoid sin demonstrates a heart that is tuned towards God and reponds to God MORE than the temptation

 

It has to do with your walk with God and your actual committment.

 

Do you hate sin or do you fear punishment?

 

They are not the same

 

Do you love God and have you put your flesh to death as the NT says or are you a ticking time bomb?

 

I'm not sure that some grasp the actual biblical concept of overcoming...it is possible

[Atwood]

I do not know how much of it is by real believers and how much by fakes.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

You should read what Jesus said to some of the churches in the book of Revelation and the punishment they would face from Him if they didn't repent.  You should note what He said to the people at the church at Pergamos and the judgment He threatened them with due to the immorality that taking place in that congregation.

 

If you had children, would you want them to obey you out of fear, or would you want them to want to do that which pleases you out of love?

 

I've lived fear-obedience for my father. It was a horrible place to be.

 

I had a healthy fear of my parents.  There is a difference between living in fear and living in terror.   Parents expect a certain amount of fear from their children.  The fear I had of my parents actually protected me from a lot of junk that my peers ended up doing and it ruined their lives.

 

If you read the letters Jesus sent to the seven churches, there were five where he was pretty brutal and He brought them to a point of decision.  Either they get their act together, or there was judgment coming from Him upon them. 

 

Jesus didn't mince any words. None of those churches last even 100 years.  Jesus did exactly what He said He would do.

 

Jesus expects us to maintain a high standard of living and He will bring judgment upon ministries in due time who succumb to immorality and sinful living.  

 

God isn't a big warm fuzzy teddy bear that we can hug and cuddle with.  He is a righteous Judge and He will judge the impurity out of His Church.  He is not above doing some house cleaning if need be.  Look at what He did to Annaias and Sapphira.

 

God loves us, but love is not His chief attribute. His chief attribute is holiness and He won't compromise that. 

[nebula]

If you read the letters Jesus sent to the seven churches, there were five where he was pretty brutal and He brought them to a point of decision.  Either they get their act together, or there was judgment coming from Him upon them. 

 

Interesting what the first church Jesus addressed was rebuked for.