Are we obeying God on Abortion

[LookingForAnswers]

The OP does not seem to be advocating waiting for the criminal justice system to do our work for us. The OP pretty much states we are not following Gods commands to kill these people. Do you agree we should be killing everyone involved in abortions....doctors, nurses, mother, PCT and more. Do you agree we are failing to follow Gods commands since these people still live?

[Qnts2]

Nice dodge, you should run for office

 

Not a dodge at all, but a solid answer.

 

Shiloh said 'Abortion is murder. And in a more ideal country and society, doctors who commit abortions would be tried for murder under our laws and if convicted, sentenced accordingly.'

 

Biblically, abortion is murder in the Mosaic covenant. However, the U.S. is not Israel and is not under the Mosaic covenant. A doctor who performs abortions are committing murder according to scripture, but abortion is not against the law in the U.S., so, the law says abortion is not murder.  

 

Now we face two differing laws. In the Mosaic covenant, there are different kinds of murder with differing penalties. If it is an accidental murder, then the person runs to the city of refuge to avoid the avenger sent by the wronged family.  Again, the U.S. is not Israel and does not have cities of refuge or allow for a family to choose an avenger. Is the doctor committing an unintentional murder? Well, the currect U.S. law says that abortion is not murder, and the baby is not really a baby but is just some cells. If the doctor believes that to be true, then the murder is unintentional. It doesn't matter though as the Mosaic law for Israel can not be followed in the U.S. and is not the law in the U.S. 

 

Shiloh is saying, the laws should be changed. Not like the Mosaic covenant, but as each country legislates the law. Abortion should be recognized as murder, and penalties for murder should be set up in the law.  

 

As a believer, I personally am against the death penalty. Death is permanent, and the death penalty doesn't just kill the person but takes away any possibility for future salvation.  Every opportunity to hear the gospel should be given to every living person. The death penalty is a jury or judge determining that there is no possibility of salvation for that person, and I do not believe we can or should make that call.  

 

[Atwood]

The governments are not obeying God. However, Christians are strangers and pilgrims in this age with citizenship in Heaven. Infanticide must have been rampant in the days when the NT was written, even after the child was born. But there is no call for Christians in the NT to enforce the law of Genesis 9 in the NT.

[Guest shiloh357]

The OP does not seem to be advocating waiting for the criminal justice system to do our work for us. The OP pretty much states we are not following Gods commands to kill these people. Do you agree we should be killing everyone involved in abortions....doctors, nurses, mother, PCT and more. Do you agree we are failing to follow Gods commands since these people still live?

I would not go as far as the OP goes, but I do think that abortion doctors are murderers.  I do believe that organizations like Planned Parenthood should be shut down and their nurses and counselors should be tried as accomplices for murder.

 

As for the mothers..  In many cases, these are young girls and most are under age, and are not making informed decisions. They are making emotional decisions and are under pressure from their parents, boyfriends, and others  to get an abortion.  I would be far more lenient on those girls who are placed in that kind of position, as they are operating from a position of ignorance and that has to be taken into account.

 

Women who consciously choose abortion as a form of birth control are as guilty of murder as the doctor.  They should be liable for first degree murder charges.

 

I do not think we should take matters into our own hands and simply go out and kill abortionists, at will.   But I do think we have lost a lot of belief in the sanctity of human life and it shows in the nearly 60 million abortions that take place.  Human life begins at conception in the womb, going back to biblical times.  Even the Bible acknowledges that. 

 

There is no biblical defense of abortion. There is no way abortion can be anything but what it is:  Murder.  While we cannot operate under the Mosaic Covenant in order to punish it, we can punish it according to our own laws and I believe we should.

[Willa]

If we truly believed in the sanctity of human life, abortionists would be tried and convicted as murderers.   Abortion is murder.  It is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life. 

 

By which court?  God is the judge and He hasn't missed a thing.  I think you are forgetting the current condition of this world.  It's fallen.

 

The way you justify murder is to dehumanize your victim.  That is why babies are presented as just blobs of tissue.  That's why unborn children are called "fetuses" and not "babies."   The term "fetus" helps one avoid the immorality of abortion.

 

How about genocide?  those people are not fetuses.  Human kind in general are lost without God

Sevenseas, I was replying to Shilo's statement which is in quotations. My pad lacks the ability to separate statements or put them in colors.

I was merely explaining the medical terms.

My statement starts with the fact that our family has actively opposed abortion.

Fetus has been used long before abortion was legalized and has nothing to do with dehumanizeing anything. It has to do with anatomy and physiology. So I don't understand your arguement since I only disagreed with the claim that the term is used by the medical profession to dehumanize. It was never meant to do so. Calling a fetus tissue is dehumanizing. Calling a fetus a fetus merely discribes a state of human development. The public often misunderstands technical terms and their true meaning. Senile refers to old age as a state of development and not to one's mental state, but it also is widely misconstrued. I also consider abortion to be murder as does the Bible. But I am trying to be rational rather than getting into a rage. So call me senile. Just don't dismiss me or dehumanize me when you do so, as the public tends to misuse the term.

 

We, as the church, have a lot to be accountable for in regards to our general moral indifference to abortion.   There are only a relatively small number of Christians who really actively protest abortion or even care about the issue at all.

 

Which we is that?  Why do people generalize so much?  There are many buildings calling themself a church but they have 'Ichabod' written over the doorframe.  But it does not yet seem time for the wheat and chaff to be separated,

so I have a problem with the church in general being kicked into the corner as though there were no hope.

Our family have actively protested abortion in picket lines as well as writing letters to congressmen.

 

Well, that's seem's good...but that does not give the right to judge all that is going on

However, fetus is a medical/biological term to identify a stage of development after the embryo stage and before birth. Just as abortion is the medical term for miscarriage, but it now is referred to as spontanious abortion due to the number of murdered fetus. When I began nursing they were differentiated by abortion and illegal abortion. I still think in those terms since both murdering a fetus (and adultry) are still illegal in God's eyes irregardless of civil law.. The Didache listed the commandment as "you shall not commit murder or commit an abortion" due to the practice being prevalant among the Romans. It did not have to be mentioned among Jews because they counted a person's age from the moment of conception so there was no question as to whether they were murdering a human being.

[Sevenseas]

Hi Willamina

 

I realized you had quoted Shiloh after I posted...my type in green, but decided to leave the response in response to what he wrote

 

I didn't know it was a quote at first because the quote does not show except for the bracket at the begining of your post

 

It's a little confusing but the point I am trying to make is that the op's premise is faulty as it does not take into account the law but only the words given to Noah and he seems to think

that God was quiet after that...at least where Noah is concerned

 

I actually said the following with regards to abortion:

 

I have already stated that I believe that abortion is like a child sacrifice to the devil.  That is my own thought on the matter....however, lumping everything together and asking why is an

over simplification of physical and spiritual concerns.  It is obvious that the spiritual conflict reveals itself in the physical, especially as we continue without God's direct intervention in sin

such as the flood.  

 

 

 

 I also consider abortion to be murder as does the Bible. But I am trying to be rational rather than getting into a rage.

 

There is no room in scripture to get into a rage....there is room for anger but not with sin.   The op shows a lack of knowledge of scripture to ask the question that was asked,

but seems to ignore responses that deal with that as well as scripture provided to indicate that his question is more personal than biblical.

 

I didn't feel like re-writing my post and the trade off was a lack of clairity on my part....sorry for the confusion

 

Hope I have made myself clearer now.

[Guest shiloh357]

By which court?  God is the judge and He hasn't missed a thing.  I think you are forgetting the current condition of this world.  It's fallen.

In any court in any city that has abortion clincs.  The same courts that try people for murdering their spouse or next door neighbor.

 

How about genocide?  those people are not fetuses.  Human kind in general are lost without God

The leader of any country committing genocide and everyone that can be proven to be complicit in that kind of crime should be tried for crimes against humanity and sentenced accordingly.

 

Which we is that?  Why do people generalize so much?  There are many buildings calling themself a church but they have 'Ichabod' written over the doorframe.  But it does not yet seem time for the wheat and chaff to be separated,

so I have a problem with the church in general being kicked into the corner as though there were no hope.

We the church. I don’t see why that is confusing to you.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

By which court?  God is the judge and He hasn't missed a thing.  I think you are forgetting the current condition of this world.  It's fallen.

In any court in any city that has abortion clincs.  The same courts that try people for murdering their spouse or next door neighbor.

 

 

 

How about genocide?  those people are not fetuses.  Human kind in general are lost without God

The leader of any country committing genocide and everyone that can be proven to be complicit in that kind of crime should be tried for crimes against humanity and sentenced accordingly.

 

 

 

Which we is that?  Why do people generalize so much?  There are many buildings calling themself a church but they have 'Ichabod' written over the doorframe.  But it does not yet seem time for the wheat and chaff to be separated,

so I have a problem with the church in general being kicked into the corner as though there were no hope.

We the church. I don’t see why that is confusing to you.

 

 

Are you forgetting that laws are constantly being changed?  God's laws are not, but it is not His laws that are being applied and we are not asked to apply His laws to unbelievers...only to oursleves..

we are not living in OT times, nor was the law given to Gentiles...I'm not using that as an excuse...it is simply a fact.  

 

I did not say anything was confusing regarding who you mean by saying 'the church'...I disagree with your collective application of your thoughts on the matter

 

I really would not know where to begin when it comes to the sinful state of the world or how God can look down on it all

 

Mankind is just storing up a terrible day of judgement

[Guest shiloh357]

Are you forgetting that laws are constantly being changed?

 

I live in the US.  Our laws against murder haven't changed.  In an ideal world, we would consider abortion murder, no birth control.  Our government would try and convict abortion doctors on that basis.  But our country has lost its moral compass.

 

God's laws are not, but it is not His laws that are being applied and we are not asked to apply His laws to unbelievers...only to oursleves..

we are not living in OT times, nor was the law given to Gentiles...I'm not using that as an excuse...it is simply a fact.  

 

 

 

This not about applying OT laws.  It is about the moral/ethical paradigm those laws create which are NOT limited to one people group.  We don't have to go back to OT to realize that murder is murder and should be treated as such.

 

 

I did not say anything was confusing regarding who you mean by saying 'the church'...I disagree with your collective application of your thoughts on the matter

 

Well, it's the truth.  The church has been largely silent on the matter and in some cases even sympathetic to the pro-choice cause. 

[Willa]

Our law is not consistant. If a fetus is killed in the act of killing the mother it is considered a double homocide or a murder plus homocide.

When women have the right to murder their own fetus, it is not longer a "right". Nor is it their own body that they are murdering, but that of an individual human being. The whole thing has become irrational and is twisted. But I have a very close friend who is deceived by the propaganda. She has never wanted children and I don't believe she has ever conceived. But she bitterly defends the "woman's right".

The only thing we have a right to is to be faithful to a husband or remain celibate. To do otherwise is base and degrading, in my mind. Sin is base and degrading.

Thanks be to God Who washes us, sancitifies and justifies us in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.