Do angels have free will?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Curious....

     LOL,I just realized in reading your post,that I never did comment on the OP....that's funny!I was so busy in the Hebrew,looking for Scriptures with the same word for cherib for chloe that I forgot all about it,,,,,,actually,I really haven't anything to add to what you said about them,I agree they have free will.....

     Gee,this is how I love to see everyone discuss a topic,,,,isn't it lovely,this is how it should always be ......& we are so Blessed by God through one another!Praise the Lord!

                                                                                                                                                                                 Your Sister in Christ-Kwik

[Remnantrob]

 

If they didn't then some of them wouldn't have rebelled against God and taken the side of Lucifer, who himself is a fallen angel.

As to fighting, consider Ephesians 6, how we wrestle not vs flesh and blood.

Help me out Oakwood, I can't think of a passage that says that satan is a fallen angel. "And no marvel; for even Satan fashions himself into an angel of light" is a pretense. Revelation speaks of satan as having angels: "his angels." But is or was satan himself an "angel," that is a messenger? (Angel means "messenger.") To whom did he carry messages? If Ezekiel 28 refers to him, then of him it is said, "You were the anointed cherub that covers." But what evidence is there that cherubim (having wings, stationed at the throne of God) are angels (never said to have wings)?

 

Who says that a requirement for being an angel is they must have wings? 

[missmuffet]

 

 

If they didn't then some of them wouldn't have rebelled against God and taken the side of Lucifer, who himself is a fallen angel.

As to fighting, consider Ephesians 6, how we wrestle not vs flesh and blood.

Help me out Oakwood, I can't think of a passage that says that satan is a fallen angel. "And no marvel; for even Satan fashions himself into an angel of light" is a pretense. Revelation speaks of satan as having angels: "his angels." But is or was satan himself an "angel," that is a messenger? (Angel means "messenger.") To whom did he carry messages? If Ezekiel 28 refers to him, then of him it is said, "You were the anointed cherub that covers." But what evidence is there that cherubim (having wings, stationed at the throne of God) are angels (never said to have wings)?

 

Who says that a requirement for being an angel is they must have wings? 

 

The Bible does not say that all angels have wings.Only two types of angels are described as having wings and that is the Cherubim and Seraphim Exodus 25:20;Ezekiel 10.A spirit being does not have to have wings to fly.When we get to heaven we will not have wings.

[a-seeker]

I haven't read ANY of the posts, so if this question has been posted already, I apologize for the redundancy.

 

If angels do not have freewill, then that leaves a huge problem of demons (presuming them to be fallen angels)--at least one species of creation will have fallen simply because they were what they were, just as a rock does not choose to fall, nor even a dog chooses to bite a mailman.

 

But if angels do have freewill, then this leaves us with the problem of grace.  Angels will have made a bad choice--but then Man has made a bad choice.  Why should Christ's sacrifice atone for man's sins but not for angels'?  Is there something in their constitution, their ontology, that makes it impossible for them to repent?  Or is there some reason why God will give ear to man's repentance but not angels?

 

All these are speculative questions, obviously, but then the thread was speculative...

 

clb

[coheir]

Ezk 28

14.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 

15.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 

16.By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 

17.Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 

18.Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 

Is this him

[OakWood]

I haven't read ANY of the posts, so if this question has been posted already, I apologize for the redundancy.

 

If angels do not have freewill, then that leaves a huge problem of demons (presuming them to be fallen angels)--at least one species of creation will have fallen simply because they were what they were, just as a rock does not choose to fall, nor even a dog chooses to bite a mailman.

 

But if angels do have freewill, then this leaves us with the problem of grace.  Angels will have made a bad choice--but then Man has made a bad choice.  Why should Christ's sacrifice atone for man's sins but not for angels'?  Is there something in their constitution, their ontology, that makes it impossible for them to repent?  Or is there some reason why God will give ear to man's repentance but not angels?

 

All these are speculative questions, obviously, but then the thread was speculative...

 

clb

 

I suspect that the difference is that angels made the bad choice knowing full well what they were doing. They are more culpable because they knew the consequences of their actions.

Man has more of an excuse because he was deceived.

Who deserves the most punishment - the misguided petty criminal who committed a crime, or the Mafia Dons behind all the crimes in the first place?

[Guest Butero]

I haven't read ANY of the posts, so if this question has been posted already, I apologize for the redundancy.

 

If angels do not have freewill, then that leaves a huge problem of demons (presuming them to be fallen angels)--at least one species of creation will have fallen simply because they were what they were, just as a rock does not choose to fall, nor even a dog chooses to bite a mailman.

 

But if angels do have freewill, then this leaves us with the problem of grace.  Angels will have made a bad choice--but then Man has made a bad choice.  Why should Christ's sacrifice atone for man's sins but not for angels'?  Is there something in their constitution, their ontology, that makes it impossible for them to repent?  Or is there some reason why God will give ear to man's repentance but not angels?

 

All these are speculative questions, obviously, but then the thread was speculative...

 

clb

There is no way I could tell you definitively why God chose to give grace to man and not the angels.  I just know that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was to pay the penalty for man's sins, not the rebellion of the angels.  God deals with man and the angels in a different way, and the Bible never addresses whether it is possible for an angel to repent.  It never addresses what would happen if they did repent.  I suspect that is because God is all knowing, and knows that the fallen angels will remain that way and the good angels will remain that way, but again, in a hypothetical situation, I don't know what would happen.  I have often thought that knowing their eternal fate is the lake of fire, you would think that some of the fallen angels would throw themselves at God's feet and seek mercy, even if there is no change of obtaining it, because look at the alternative.  Regardless, Jesus didn't die on the cross for the angels.  That much I know to be true. 

[a-seeker]

 

Ezk 28

14.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 

15.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 

16.By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 

17.Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 

18.Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 

Is this him

 

I am not sure how that quote is a response to my questions--but I do not regard that passage as referring to Satan or any angel.  It is clearly referring to the King of Tyre and is using Edenic imagery and metaphor.

 

clb

[Openly Curious]

But if angels do have freewill, then this leaves us with the problem of grace.  Angels will have made a bad choice--but then Man has made a bad choice.  Why should Christ's sacrifice atone for man's sins but not for angels'?  Is there something in their constitution, their ontology, that makes it impossible for them to repent?  Or is there some reason why God will give ear to man's repentance but not angels?

 

clb

 

Hi clb,  The angelic host that God created were already "heavenly bodies" (eternal beings).  Man was created a little lower than the angels "earthly bodies". 

 

The fall in the garden caused death (physical) to pass upon the human race as the result of disobedience.  In this case man needed a Redeemer in order to be saved from the physical death of his body.   Through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ God has made a way for man to be saved.   Saved from his sins as Christ shed blood was the sacrifice and atonement for our transgressions.  Christ blood was the ransom price that was paid to buy us back from the curse of the law (the wages of sin being the death of our physical earthly bodies).  Through Christ resurrection we have this hope that we will have an "eternal heavenly glorified body that will live forever"  

 

All the angelic host of heaven were created in an eternal state of being man was not.  It seems Satan tricked some of the angelic host to leave their "first estate" as we have the record in Genesis 6 where they looked upon the daughters of men and cohabitated with the earthly women in the earth.  The record given to us in Genesis says that the offspring of that unholy sexual union between the sons of God (angels) and the daughters of men (women on the earth) were giants.  This wickedness of the angels leaving their "first estate" brought the judgment of God as God destroyed the entire human race on the earth at that time except the eight souls he preserved or saved in the ark being Noah an his family.  The record is given by the apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:4,5) and Jude (Jude 6) in how God has preserved these fallen angels for a time of future judgment in everlasting chains under darkness. 

 

I haven't personally found a record in scripture that says "all of the fallen angels" who left their "first estate" actually slept with the women on the earth at that time.  This could possibly explain the demonic influences we as Christians have to contend and stand against in the army of Satan.   But I do know from scripture that the fallen angels who did co-mingle with the women on earth are being kept in store and preserved for a future time of judgment for what they did in trying to pro-create. 

 

But seeing that the bodies of the heavenly angelic host of God were in their beginning (first or original state) created as everlasting eternal creatures (bodies) that wouldn't ever die.  Then their is nothing to be redeemed for they willingly left their eternal home in the presence of God.   The angelic host in the book of Revelation 5:8-13 & 14:3 can't comprehend the songs of the redeemed for the angels of God do not know what it is to be redeemed.  Only the saints understand the songs of the redeemed.  As we were without hope in the world forever lost but were redeemed by the blood of the lamb.  We have hope in the resurrection of our bodies and of an eternal everlasting existance in the presence of God the Father. 

 

But some of the angels rebelled against God they left their first estate their eternal abode or home in the presence of Almighty God.  They willingly chose of their own freewill to rebell against God and now face judgment and eternal everlasting seperation from God.  The fact that the scripture says that "they left" their first estate" suggests and leads me to believe strongly that the angels do have freewill in keeping with the OP.   

 

I don't think personally we fully understand as earthly fleshly beings what it is to be created a little lower than the angels.  Nor do I think the angels fully understand what it is to be created as eternal beings never knowing death or having a earthly body of flesh and blood.  I think both the terrestrial (heavenly) beings and the celestial (earthly) being do stand in awe of the glory of the other.  Just thoughts.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Ezk 28

14.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 

15.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 

16.By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 

17.Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 

18.Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 

Is this him

 

I am not sure how that quote is a response to my questions--but I do not regard that passage as referring to Satan or any angel.  It is clearly referring to the King of Tyre and is using Edenic imagery and metaphor.

 

clb

 

Some of the prophetic scriptures have double meanings.  There is the obvious one, and then there is the hidden one.  God was speaking to the King of Tyre, but then began speaking of Lucifer.  There are things in this passage where you know it couldn't have been speaking of anyone but the devil.