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A different end times scenario to discuss


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To my dear friend Rolling Thunder,

As you recall, for a long time, I was so torn between pre trib rapture and pre wrath that I would not say I believed in anything. I saw them both in scripture so I went back and forth. And then you and your book came along and all of a sudden, a lightbulb went off......

What if there are two raptures? Is that even possible? You know, two phases of the rapture-phase one for the real special people who love God, like the church of Philadelphia. Phase two for everyone else. The phase two people have to be tried and purged of their worldliness and selfishness and thus are thrown into the fire (tribulation). The phase one people have already passed their exam.

Even though I may not agree with all the conclusions you have drawn through scripture, it is your book that has helped me figure out the conundrum that I have been facing for the past 10 years. As we both know, no one really knows if they are 100% right in these matters, but the most important thing is we stay humble and gracious to God for any wisdom he imparts to us. Heck, tomorrow in my study, I may have new thoughts that could make this present one obsolete. I have gone back and forth on this topic for 30 years so who is to say I won't flip again.

Anyhow, just want to say thanks again for helping me think through this and for your valuable input. I value our friendship here at Worthy.

Spock out

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As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:Rev 3:10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord?

Thanks for your input my brother. I've been waiting for your arrival.

We disagree on our interpretation of "hour of testing." Whereby you see it as being kept from God's wrath, I see it as being kept from the time of testing, which is the first half of Daniels week. You see, I believe the entire church has been promised to be kept from the wrath of God, not just faithful believers. Thus, the special perk for the faithful believers, like Philadelphia, are the times leading up to God's wrath being unleashed, which I believe are the seals.

Can't wait to see if I am right. Ha

Spock out

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Blessings Enoch2010....

     I am not a pre-tribber & I don't jump in these conversations for the simple fact that FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,so why bother going any further,,,,we just go round & round & round

o #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.

23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

 

So,if we cannot agree on the interpretation of these Scriptures then I just can't see the point of the conversation...................thats just works for me & I have nothing more to add.......but I do read what the others share anyway,,,,,,,

                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

 

==============================================================================

 

Hey Kwik  :)

 

 

I don't jump in these conversations for the simple fact that FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,

 

And these 2 statements are passages from.....a "Heavily Jewish" Book (Matthew) who's Target Audience from just a cursory reading of the Book is The Jews;  before "The Church" is even born and HID until it was Paul's Pleasure to announce the Mystery in ....

 

(Ephesians 3:4-6) "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

(Colossians 1:26-27) "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  {27} To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

 

 

You're exactly right, these passages speak nothing of THE RAPTURE....they speak of HIS Second Coming.  Two Different Events

 

 

The coming of the Son of man is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those day.

 

Then How in the World does HIS BRIDE.........."The CHURCH" who is already in Heaven preparing for the Marriage Supper follow HIM In that day? :

 

(Revelation 19:7-16) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

Who's Christ's Bride,  "The Church".......

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

 

,if we cannot agree on the interpretation of these Scriptures then I just can't see the point of the conversation

 

The POINT is to discover THE TRUTH from GOD'S WORD so you won't be Deceived.....

 

(2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

 

 

 

You also have roughly 30 other Scriptures and 2 Major Doctrines that a Post Trib Rapture Directly Violates.  Do you think a "conversation" might be warranted?

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Hey Spock

     Yes,I did read your OP,interesting but I really do not think that in order for our Lord to make it possible for them to escape all these things that He would have to provide them with a special ,separate or as you say"first fruit harvest" & first rapture,,,,,,,,I think God can protect His own from any hurt,harm or danger in the midst of all chaos if He so desires and as the Scripture reveals.....................just my 2 cents

                                                                                                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

And for Enoch2021,

               I was addressing the other Enoch as he inquired why there are not any post-tribbers jumping in,,,,,,your response is exactly a very big part of my reasons for not getting in these conversations,"round & round & round"the same Scripture verses being quoted over & over......Whether I think the conversation is warranted or not has no relevance to anything,& it seems with you in particular whenever a person disagrees with your interpretation I have noticed your closing statement is always"Prove all things ,hold fast that which is good " & you also add how others interpretation violates Scripture........

        These things are distasteful to me & I don't wish to be a part of it,I don't ever wish to prove my point but simply to express it,,,,,whether or not anyone agrees is their perrogative & I respect that,even yours.So,if you think a conversation is warranted then by all means have one,nobody is stopping you......so- please.don't try to drag me into a conversation that I don't wish to engage in ,,,,besides,they usually end up in debate ,,,,,,which I really don't like                       God Bless you-Shalom

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Hey Spock

     Yes,I did read your OP,interesting but I really do not think that in order for our Lord to make it possible for them to escape all these things that He would have to provide them with a special ,separate or as you say"first fruit harvest" & first rapture,,,,,,,,I think God can protect His own from any hurt,harm or danger in the midst of all chaos if He so desires and as the Scripture reveals.....................just my 2 cents

                                                                                                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

I agree with you that God, if he so chooses, could also divinely keep his faithful while not having to lift them out. Nothing is impossible with God, so yes, this interpretation has merit.

However, promise me this, if I meet you at the wedding supper at the appointed time I said, you will do all you can to come seek me out and tell me, "Spock, you are the man!" Lol. We shall see, won't we.

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Blessings Spock.............

     LOL,,,,,You are the man! And I will say,"pass the mashed potatoes"...........to God be all the Glory!

                                                                                                                                                            Love you brother,Kwik

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Hey Spock

     Yes,I did read your OP,interesting but I really do not think that in order for our Lord to make it possible for them to escape all these things that He would have to provide them with a special ,separate or as you say"first fruit harvest" & first rapture,,,,,,,,I think God can protect His own from any hurt,harm or danger in the midst of all chaos if He so desires and as the Scripture reveals.....................just my 2 cents

                                                                                                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

I agree with you that God, if he so chooses, could also divinely keep his faithful while not having to lift them out. Nothing is impossible with God, so yes, this interpretation has merit.

However, promise me this, if I meet you at the wedding supper at the appointed time I said, you will do all you can to come seek me out and tell me, "Spock, you are the man!" Lol. We shall see, won't we.

 

 

 

===========================================================================

 

Spock,

 

The question is not what GOD "Could do" is what HE said HE would do.

 

 

Brother, Don't sacrifice the WORD of GOD for "Agreement".................EVER!

 

 

Let's play the inevitable Hypothetical......Pre-Trib Rapture is The TRUTH  (Which it is):

 

Before the 70th Week, The Church is Raptured.  How many people are we talking....(I really couldn't say);  Lets say 10 Million.  In the "Twinkling of an Eye" these people are GONE.

 

I have no idea what response that event will illicit when the time comes. There is no doubt that you're gonna have a Metric Ton of people who thought they were saved but were not. JUST Psychologically, what's the toll?

 

CNN pops on (Roughly 3 1/2 years later), and you see the Abomination of Desolation.  Bible reading people who have a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Daniel and Revelation) can know pull out their Calendars and set their Watches.  (Of which, Whereby violating about 30 Scriptures and 2 Doctrines.)

 

 

The World falls into Chaos. They knock on your door.....you have to take the "mark" or you can't eat or buy ANYTHING and worse, as we know.

 

 

You tell me sir.....

 

 

 

ps. will be off the net for a while  (Which I'm sure alot of people won't mind  ;) )  have some computer issues.

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kwik and Spock...meet me by the lambs  :mgcheerful:

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Hey Spock

     Yes,I did read your OP,interesting but I really do not think that in order for our Lord to make it possible for them to escape all these things that He would have to provide them with a special ,separate or as you say"first fruit harvest" & first rapture,,,,,,,,I think God can protect His own from any hurt,harm or danger in the midst of all chaos if He so desires and as the Scripture reveals.....................just my 2 cents

                                                                                                                                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

And for Enoch2021,

               I was addressing the other Enoch as he inquired why there are not any post-tribbers jumping in,,,,,,your response is exactly a very big part of my reasons for not getting in these conversations,"round & round & round"the same Scripture verses being quoted over & over......Whether I think the conversation is warranted or not has no relevance to anything,& it seems with you in particular whenever a person disagrees with your interpretation I have noticed your closing statement is always"Prove all things ,hold fast that which is good " & you also add how others interpretation violates Scripture........

        These things are distasteful to me & I don't wish to be a part of it,I don't ever wish to prove my point but simply to express it,,,,,whether or not anyone agrees is their perrogative & I respect that,even yours.So,if you think a conversation is warranted then by all means have one,nobody is stopping you......so- please.don't try to drag me into a conversation that I don't wish to engage in ,,,,besides,they usually end up in debate ,,,,,,which I really don't like                       God Bless you-Shalom

 

 

============================================================================

 

On a my daughter's computer  :)

 

 

So you said.....

 

"FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,so why bother going any further,,,,we just go round & round & round"

 

Then when I Refute your "Formica Deep" position you state.....

 

"These things are distasteful to me & I don't wish to be a part of it"  ----Then why did you state a position like you had the answers and Pre-Tribbers were more or less Mis-guided souls?

 

"besides,they usually end up in debate"----  This is a Forum isn't it?

 

"whether or not anyone agrees is their perrogative & I respect that"------  Whether any one agrees or whether you respect me or not is irrelevant.  What does GOD'S WORD SAY??

 

"please.don't try to drag me into a conversation that I don't wish to engage in" ----  1st off, this is a website and written forum for "discussion"....nobody can make anyone do anything.  2nd, so what you want to have happen is you post your position then say you don't want to discuss ?? 

 

"it seems with you in particular whenever a person disagrees with your interpretation I have noticed your closing statement is always"Prove all things ,hold fast that which is good " & you also add how others interpretation violates Scripture"

All this is is an AD Hominem attack, Plain and Simple.  And it's all YOU seem to do. When their position does violate Scripture then, Yes I do say that, AND THEN......SUPPORT IT WITH SCRIPTURE.

Moreover it's not "my" Interpretation it's GOD'S WORD.

And I don't always end with.... (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  That's GOD's WORD.  I didn't write it.  It sounds like your problem is not with me but the ONE who wrote it.

 

 

Anything concerning the substance of my refutation?

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As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:

Rev 3:10

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord

Because the day of the Lord is the 'end'. It is not 'testing', its done, over, those who dwell on the earth and *still* have not repented.

Matt - What is the sign of your coming (parousia) And the End of the Age?

 

 

 

Hi Hindsfeet, 

 

That was a good answer, and I do accept it.  I even checked the Greek which is more consistent with a test/temptation...rather than just a trial as some translations have it. 

 

However there is also a more accurate Greek rendering of the words "keep" and "from". 

The word "keep" in Greek is "tēreō" which means to "keep safe"  or "take care of"  or "maintain"

The word "from" in Greek is the word "ek" and is more commonly translated as "of". 

 

If we apply the more common usage to those words in Rev 3, we get the following sentence:

 I will also take care of you (maintain you) of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

 

I am not sure why the translators chose the word "from" rather than the word "of". The word "of" is the normal rendering of the Greek word "tereo".

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