A different end times scenario to discuss

[ARGOSY]

 

As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:Rev 3:10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord?

Thanks for your input my brother. I've been waiting for your arrival.

We disagree on our interpretation of "hour of testing." Whereby you see it as being kept from God's wrath, I see it as being kept from the time of testing, which is the first half of Daniels week. You see, I believe the entire church has been promised to be kept from the wrath of God, not just faithful believers. Thus, the special perk for the faithful believers, like Philadelphia, are the times leading up to God's wrath being unleashed, which I believe are the seals.

Can't wait to see if I am right. Ha

Spock out

 

 

 

thanks, you will see from the above post of mine that there is also another way of looking at the Greek wording of Revelation 3.  Keep you safe of the hour of trial. (of meaning "referring to")

 

As for the wrath of God, I see those four horses as referring to four eras in history , not necessarily the tribulation. Have you any biblical evidence to place those four horses as during the tribulation, and involving God's wrath? There is a difference between the plans of man (invasions/economic turmoil etc) and the consequences of the behaviour of mankind (the ozone hole, disease /death etc)  and the wrath of God.

 

I note, no-one responded to my view of  Luke 21:36, I took some time to explain carefully how the pre-trib view of verse 36 is the less likely view.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:

Rev 3:10

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord

Because the day of the Lord is the 'end'. It is not 'testing', its done, over, those who dwell on the earth and *still* have not repented.

Matt - What is the sign of your coming (parousia) And the End of the Age?

 

 

 

Hi Hindsfeet, 

 

That was a good answer, and I do accept it.  I even checked the Greek which is more consistent with a test/temptation...rather than just a trial as some translations have it. 

 

However there is also a more accurate Greek rendering of the words "keep" and "from". 

The word "keep" in Greek is "tēreō" which means to "keep safe"  or "take care of"  or "maintain"

The word "from" in Greek is the word "ek" and is more commonly translated as "of". 

 

If we apply the more common usage to those words in Rev 3, we get the following sentence:

 I will also take care of you (maintain you) of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

 

I am not sure why the translators chose the word "from" rather than the word "of". The word "of" is the normal rendering of the Greek word "tereo".

 

 

 

How about "KEEP SAFE" from or "of"  the Hour of Trial??

 

Thanks 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

As for the Philadelphia church, I believe God was just reminding them that they would be raptured on the day of the Lord, and would not have to go through that terrible day of fire and destruction. Its not as if they get preference, its just that God does not have to reprimand them and so is just encouraging them that their destiny is safe, unlike the other churches that needed reprimanding to get keep them on the narrow path. I don't see the phrase "hour of trial" as favoring a symbolic reference to 7 years .. over a symbolic reference to 1 terrible day:Rev 3:10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.Maybe someone here can explain why Rev 3 is more likely referring to the whole 7 year tribulation rather than just the day of the Lord?

Thanks for your input my brother. I've been waiting for your arrival.

We disagree on our interpretation of "hour of testing." Whereby you see it as being kept from God's wrath, I see it as being kept from the time of testing, which is the first half of Daniels week. You see, I believe the entire church has been promised to be kept from the wrath of God, not just faithful believers. Thus, the special perk for the faithful believers, like Philadelphia, are the times leading up to God's wrath being unleashed, which I believe are the seals.

Can't wait to see if I am right. Ha

Spock out

 

 

 

thanks, you will see from the above post of mine that there is also another way of looking at the Greek wording of Revelation 3.  Keep you safe of the hour of trial. (of meaning "referring to")

 

As for the wrath of God, I see those four horses as referring to four eras in history , not necessarily the tribulation. Have you any biblical evidence to place those four horses as during the tribulation, and involving God's wrath? There is a difference between the plans of man (invasions/economic turmoil etc) and the consequences of the behaviour of mankind (the ozone hole, disease /death etc)  and the wrath of God.

 

I note, no-one responded to my view of  Luke 21:36, I took some time to explain carefully how the pre-trib view of verse 36 is the less likely view.

 

 

 

Go ahead and post it again .....I didn't see it.  

[Hindsfeet]

 

Let's play the inevitable Hypothetical......Pre-Trib Rapture is The TRUTH  (Which it is):

 

Before the 70th Week, The Church is Raptured.  How many people are we talking....(I really couldn't say);  Lets say 10 Million.  In the "Twinkling of an Eye" these people are GONE.

 

I have no idea what response that event will illicit when the time comes. There is no doubt that you're gonna have a Metric Ton of people who thought they were saved but were not. JUST Psychologically, what's the toll?

 

<snip>

 

The World falls into Chaos.

<snip>

 

 

 

Which is precisley why it says....

After the Tribulation *of *those *days......

 

With all those people gone, yeh, I imagine there will be tribulation!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Hindsfeet

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Let's play the inevitable Hypothetical......Pre-Trib Rapture is The TRUTH  (Which it is):

 

Before the 70th Week, The Church is Raptured.  How many people are we talking....(I really couldn't say);  Lets say 10 Million.  In the "Twinkling of an Eye" these people are GONE.

 

I have no idea what response that event will illicit when the time comes. There is no doubt that you're gonna have a Metric Ton of people who thought they were saved but were not. JUST Psychologically, what's the toll?

 

<snip>

 

The World falls into Chaos.

<snip>

 

 

 

Which is precisley why it says....

After the Tribulation *of *those *days......

 

With all those people gone, yeh, I imagine there will be tribulation!

 

 

 

Not following?

[MorningGlory]

 

So you said.....

 

"FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,so why bother going any further,,,,we just go round & round & round"

 

Then when I Refute your "Formica Deep" position you state.....

 

"These things are distasteful to me & I don't wish to be a part of it"  ----Then why did you state a position like you had the answers and Pre-Tribbers were more or less Mis-guided souls?

 

"besides,they usually end up in debate"----  This is a Forum isn't it?

 

"whether or not anyone agrees is their perrogative & I respect that"------  Whether any one agrees or whether you respect me or not is irrelevant.  What does GOD'S WORD SAY??

 

"please.don't try to drag me into a conversation that I don't wish to engage in" ----  1st off, this is a website and written forum for "discussion"....nobody can make anyone do anything.  2nd, so what you want to have happen is you post your position then say you don't want to discuss ?? 

 

"it seems with you in particular whenever a person disagrees with your interpretation I have noticed your closing statement is always"Prove all things ,hold fast that which is good " & you also add how others interpretation violates Scripture"

All this is is an AD Hominem attack, Plain and Simple.  And it's all YOU seem to do. When their position does violate Scripture then, Yes I do say that, AND THEN......SUPPORT IT WITH SCRIPTURE.

Moreover it's not "my" Interpretation it's GOD'S WORD.

And I don't always end with.... (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  That's GOD's WORD.  I didn't write it.  It sounds like your problem is not with me but the ONE who wrote it.

 

 

Anything concerning the substance of my refutation?

 

Not to get off the subject but....yeah, I'm getting off the subject right now.  This type of 'quoting' (above) is so confusing it's ridiculous.  Some of us want to actually follow a thread.  Why not use the quote feature?  I don't know who is saying what and maybe y'all think that's no big deal.  Well, if you want people to UNDERSTAND you, it IS a big deal.  How about making it just a little easier on the rest of us?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

So you said.....

 

"FOR ME it is pretty clear that the Scriptures do not support a pre-trib rapture with just 2 very specific statements,so why bother going any further,,,,we just go round & round & round"

 

Then when I Refute your "Formica Deep" position you state.....

 

"These things are distasteful to me & I don't wish to be a part of it"  ----Then why did you state a position like you had the answers and Pre-Tribbers were more or less Mis-guided souls?

 

"besides,they usually end up in debate"----  This is a Forum isn't it?

 

"whether or not anyone agrees is their perrogative & I respect that"------  Whether any one agrees or whether you respect me or not is irrelevant.  What does GOD'S WORD SAY??

 

"please.don't try to drag me into a conversation that I don't wish to engage in" ----  1st off, this is a website and written forum for "discussion"....nobody can make anyone do anything.  2nd, so what you want to have happen is you post your position then say you don't want to discuss ?? 

 

"it seems with you in particular whenever a person disagrees with your interpretation I have noticed your closing statement is always"Prove all things ,hold fast that which is good " & you also add how others interpretation violates Scripture"

All this is is an AD Hominem attack, Plain and Simple.  And it's all YOU seem to do. When their position does violate Scripture then, Yes I do say that, AND THEN......SUPPORT IT WITH SCRIPTURE.

Moreover it's not "my" Interpretation it's GOD'S WORD.

And I don't always end with.... (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  That's GOD's WORD.  I didn't write it.  It sounds like your problem is not with me but the ONE who wrote it.

 

 

Anything concerning the substance of my refutation?

 

Not to get off the subject but....yeah, I'm getting off the subject right now.  This type of 'quoting' (above) is so confusing it's ridiculous.  Some of us want to actually follow a thread.  Why not use the quote feature?  I don't know who is saying what and maybe y'all think that's no big deal.  Well, if you want people to UNDERSTAND you, it IS a big deal.  How about making it just a little easier on the rest of us?

 

 

 

 

Well because I took my computer to a medic this morning and I fired up My Daughter's Computer that has Window's 8  (Arggggggghhh) and it wouldn't let me use the quote feature for some strange reason.  So I had to adapt and overcome. 

 

Additionally, it's really not hard to follow.....I quoted the replier in Green and my comments in Black.  You don't need an abacus

[MorningGlory]

 

 

Well because I took my computer to a medic this morning and I fired up My Daughter's Computer that has Window's 8  (Arggggggghhh) and it wouldn't let me use the quote feature for some strange reason.  So I had to adapt and overcome. 

 

Additionally, it's really not hard to follow.....I quoted the replier in Green and my comments in Black.  You don't need an abacus

 

 

I don't OWN an abacus either, thank you.  As for the black and green, they are nearly indistinguishable in your posts.  In fact, I didn't even notice the two colors until I read that.  I can see that running Windows 8 might present problems but the run-together posts are maddening.  Hope you get that resolved soon. 

[Donibm]

I just want to throw this out for us to civilly discuss. I'm not saying this is what I believe yet, but it is something I'm leaning toward, considering, weighing, and researching. Your thoughts will be welcomed of course.

So here goes. I will start with a timeline and then add to it as the thread progresses:

1. First Fruits Rapture (think first fruits harvest) of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."  (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)

 

-these people are special and only are taken to the wedding supper.(think church of Philadelphia promise Rev 3:10)

I now think there is a distinction that will be made among believers and that we are not all alike and will not all be treated equally. I can show you many scripture verses to support this if needed. (Many thanks to Rolling Thunder and his book who turned me on to this way of thinking.)

2. The 70th week of Daniel begins (Daniel 9:24 ff)

3. The first five seals of revelation 6 are opened, and basically, the seals make up the first 3.5 years, up to midpoint (rev 6:1-11)

-during this time, the "lukewarm left behind believers" are being tested and persecuted, with many also dying. The antichrist has moved into power by solving problems, like the Mideast problem and perhaps explaining the rapture of the faithful saints away. The antichrist is opposed to any voice opposed to him, mostly left behind Christians and rallies public opinion against this people group. The Ezekiel 38/39 war occurs in this time period too.

4. Right at the end of this 3.5 years, seal 6 is opened which will shortly enter in the Day of The Lord. Massive earthquake, nuclear bomb, etc occur. (Rev 6:12-17)

5. A second rapture (the main, general harvest of the church)  occurs here- the vast majority of the Church will now come out before God unleashes his wrath on all of mankind. These believers had to be tested, purged, and purified before experiencing the rapture.  (see rev 7:9 to see this rapture). These trib saints were not invited to the wedding supper because they were not prepared and ready. That was only for the first Raptured saints.

 

-the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish remnant (rev 7:1-8) here also.

6. The abomination of desolation probably occurs shortly after the 2nd rapture, at the midpoint in the week.

7. The day of The Lord begins which make up the trumpet and bowl judgments. (Rev 8- rev 19) This is the time of Jacobs trouble, which is basically meant to refine and purge the Jews for unfaithfulness. The Church is now out, but obviously, there will be many Gentiles who will subsequently believe and not take the mark of the beast.

8. The return of Jesus (rev 19) and obviously Jesus wins quickly.

- I am not going into detail about the day of The Lord because I think many of us know all about the trumpets and bowls.

9. The millennium reign of Christ begins.

-sheep and goats judgment is first up.

-if a rapture is not considered a resurrection, then the first resurrection comes here too.

10. Thousand years are up, satan loosed, defeated again, and sent to the abyss.

You should know the rest. The kingdom of God begins.

Looking back at what I just wrote, it basically looks like the first half of Daniels 70th week is a time of testing for lukewarm Christians, and the second half of the week is a time to test gods chosen people, the Jews.

Obviously, the most controversial item is the two raptures. Is that in scripture? Well, maybe it helps to see them like this: in Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the "first fruits"harvest, followed by the "general" harvest, and the leftovers was called the "gleanings" which was gathered by the poor and the needy.

First fruits harvest = the first harvest offered to God, the rapture of the faithful (small minority)

General harvest=the many other believers who were left behind and not faithful enough (large majority)

Gleanings= the leftovers at the sheep and goat judgment perhaps?

So what do you think? I'm all ears and welcome any and all feedback. Like I previously said, I'm not putting this out to be dogmatic, but to just share some musings I am having as I research bible prophecy.

Thanks for listening.

Spock covering his eyes

I'm not one to entertain "multiple raptures".  As I'm not one to entertain many new "winds of doctrine"  But I will say that just as there are many antichrists, there is only ONE Antichrist.

 

Just as many have been "anointed" (messiah), there is only ONE Messiah.

 

Likewise, there is ONE Gospel, and ONE Sheherd and ONE flock ... and ONE Rapture.  There is no "I'll take them because they are watching and paying attention" because God will redeem and save those who belong to Him regardless.  He spoke only to Noah, not Noahs sons and the women, but He took them all.

 

I am a watcher.  I look at the signs.  I am grieved with this world, sin, my own flesh, and I long for redemption, but the SPIRIT HIMSELF testifies that He will not just redeem me and not my wife, who is not as much a watcher as I am ... or any other brethren in Christ.

 

Abraham was very, very clear when he said to God, "Far be it from You to destroy the righteous with the wicked!  Wont the Lord of all the earth do what is right!?"

 

... Abraham was right, and he is the HEAD of our faith.  

 

 

And we shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and caught up to be with Him in the air.  Not twice.  Not three times.  But once.

[Donibm]

I still think people get the Rapture and the Second Coming confused.

 

I also know that people don't seem to know that the Bible is NOT written or delivered in chronological order ... and neither is Revelation.