Revelation 13

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi all,

 

I`ll put in my thoughts which relate to Prophetic Perspective. I don`t know if any here have heard of that but I`ll give a quick explanation. it is when 2 events are written about in God`s word but there is a big time difference between them. For example -

 

`The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me.....to proclaim the favourable year of the Lord, & the day of vengeance of our God.`  (Isa. 61: 1 & 2)

 

Now compare that with what our Lord said in the temple -

 

`The Spirit of the Lord is upon me......to proclaim the favourable year of the Lord......Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.`  (Luke 4: 18 - 21)

 

Here we can see that the Lord only quoted half of that final sentence from Isaiah. Why? Because it would be about 2,000 years later when the next part, `and the day of vengeance of our God.` would be fulfilled.

 

That is called by scholars - Prophetic Perspective.

Hi Marilyn,

In the states, most scholars refer to these as dual prophecies and/or dual fulfillment prophecies.

Cheers

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi Spock,

 

It seems the thread has gone in different directions (yet again) so some of your questions re: the final Global Government I will keep for another time.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

Yup, the old pre-trib / post-trib debate strikes again. This is one topic that really wears me down. It makes you feel like you're a ping-pong ball.

 

But just for the record, neither one of those two theories are compatible with the biblical feasts, so neither holds water, even though one is much closer to the truth than the other. 

 

Now post-trib/pre-wrath is a different story.  Just sayin'

 

 

Cheers 

[Marilyn C]

Nice to see you around rollinTHUNDER,

 

Yes it would be good to keep to a topic & then we may actually work through to the truth.

 

I think the Prophetic Perspective & the dual refer to different things.

[Marilyn C]

Thanks other one,

 

for that info re: `Tragedy & Hope,` by Prof. Quigley. I am looking it up & listening to the video about him.

 

Also totally agree about `global.`

[Salty]

Thanks other one,

 

for that info re: `Tragedy & Hope,` by Prof. Quigley. I am looking it up & listening to the video about him.

 

Also totally agree about `global.`

 

So you read his book... . Clinton certainly endorsed him, and why wouldn't he, since that book was written for Insiders and not us.

[Paradox]

The info posted in this thread is astounding.

 

God bless you for your diligence!

 

Often two sides of an argument are true, unrealized by either proponent.

 

Back to chapter 13.

 

To help identify each beast in Daniel and Revelation, is to stick to the original and simple model of the metal man, this lays the foundation for Daniel 7, which lays it down for ch 8 and so on.

 

Revelation takes up from somewhere in Daniel, namely the 4th "diverse" beast.

 

As a clue, the beast of Rev 13 has the body parts of the 4 beasts in Daniel. 

 

Now if you want a picture from Daniel's time till the end, all you have to do is count the beasts, its that simple.

 

This eliminates problems with counting in other powers like ancient Egypt, or Islam, even though these are alluded to or directly referred to throughout etc

 

The powers which each beast represents is very specific.

 

Go for it ! Just as a hint, if a beast doubles up with another beast, e.g, the bear and the ram, count it as one kingdom or power.

 

Your conclusion has to agree with Rev 17:11 which gives the answer as to how many powers there are.

 

The last beast is tricky to work out, but some of you have already identified it exactly.

 

 

 

[Spock]

Paradox,

Greetings and shalom, brother.

I really would like to play this game, but I'm a wee bit confused.

Rev 17:11 says this-

11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

I'm a bit confused in what you are asking us to do in regards to the two Rev 13 beasts in conjunction with Rev 17:11. It seems like apples and oranges.

One chapter talks about the origin of two members of the evil trinity, and the other talks about all the kingdoms that have ruled "the known world."

Please enlighten me as to where I have gone astray in my thinking and maybe I could jump on once I am on the straight path. Thanks.

[Paradox]

Daniel and Revelation are only ever talking about significant world empires, significant so far as heaven is concerned.

 

So the Bible will not mention battles which do not make a world difference so far as truth is concerned. E.g, the skirmishes in the middle east, wars and rumors of wars etc,

 

It is a heavenly point of view, such as seeing a dragon in heaven Rev 12. The issues must be those which concern the battle between Christ and Satan and how they are played out on earth in literal kingdoms or persuations.

 

But the details are hidden from irreverent and unrepentant men, because of the political powers by which Satan uses men on earth to hurt and kill the saints, as well as to wipe out the truth if possible.

 

Each beast is a significant power on earth in regards to the battle between good and evil, usually a world empire.

 

Work out the world empires as Daniel and Revelation present. Don't count any others like Mesopotamia, ancient Assyria, Egypt etc. these are not in there.

 

Identify each kingdom as the Bible tells, and if there is no name attached, leave a blank on your chart or list, and fill it in from your re conning of the other characteristics given to it.

 

The succession of kingdoms have to match or agree with the metal image of Daniel 2, and so do all the other prophecies or visions, because this first vision is an overall view from start to finish.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Paradox,

 

I agree that the metal image of Dan. 2 has the overview of the Gentile World Rulers - 4 gone, & one to come. We all agree on that, though as to who is to come we disagree. (Revived Roman Empire / Islamic Federation)

 

Now you may not have read some of the past threads so I will give a quick summary of what I believe & was taught many, many years ago.

The Dan. 7 `beasts` have been taught as the same as the great image rulers BUT there are 3 reasons why that is not so.

 

1. The `4 beasts,` were yet to arise after Babylon. (Dan. 7: 17    `shall arise...`)

2. The `4 beasts,` arise one at a time but continue to operate in the same time period. (contemporaneously) (Dan.7: 7  Last beast trampled down the rest.) 

3. The `4 beasts,` are world powers but not world rulers when they arise as they are trampled down. The last one eventually becomes world Ruler but note, the first three beasts are given an extension of life after the last world ruler is dealt with. Thus they have to be contemporary powers.  (Dan. 7: 12)

 

 

I have noted that those who believe in the Historic View (RRE) are always speculating, conjecturing & always looking forward to the EU arising to be this great terrifying beast.

 

On the other hand when you understand the Contemporary View of the `4 beasts,` as the Super Powers of today then your world view easily comes into focus & there is no speculation or opinioning.  

[Salty]

Does the word "beast" in Revelation only always apply to a kingdom beast? No. Rev.13:11 with the "another beast" showed us it used for a person too. That flows in the Rev.17 chapter also.

 

Rev 17:8-14
8    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 

Is that about the beast kingdom idea, or a person as that beast? Does the beast kingdom ascend up from the bottomless pit and go into perdition, or is that about another beast? Notice in Rev.13:1 the beast kingdom comes up from the sea, the waters of Rev.17:15 which Jesus showed are peoples and nations. It's the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 that comes up from the earth linked to this 8th verse.

 

 

Rev.17:10    And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11    And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

How do those FIVE past kings relate to the 4th beast of Daniel? Since when did 5 = 4? And further, John showed there that the 6th king was his days, with the 7th still to come. Again, how do those 7 kings relate to the 4th beast of Daniel, for these kings here are chronological, not appearing at the same time? They only relate regarding the past beast kingdom types of history prior to John, and then the one in John's days with the 6th king. But John did not connect the 7th king with his days, nor did he give clue where the 7th king would come from.

 

Notice this 11th verse puts the "beast" label on a king, very important to realize. Thus this part of the Scripture is talking about a beast king.

 

Verse 11 is one of the keys our Lord Jesus gave us. He shows there's also an 8th king to come, and that 8th king goes into perdition, which is a direct link back to the one who ascends from the bottomless pit and goes into perdition per the previous Rev.17:8 verse. Even a stronger clue is that phrase "the beast that was, and is not" pointing to verse 8 again. And then His strongest clue with the phrase "even he is the eighth, and is of the seven".

 

This is where one must put their thinking cap on. The beast that was, and is not is about the 7th king that is to come. It's the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, the one who sets up idol worship in Jerusalem for the tribulation. For the end of this present world is when that 7th king will fulfill the "yet is" part of the 8th verse. But how is he also the 8th king, and of the previous 7 kings? Could any flesh man be that 7th king, and then also an 8th king, and also be OF all those 7 kings? No. Who could be then?

 

Further, name me one flesh king that has already been assigned to "perdition"? None of the old kings of history have been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire just yet, for that Judgment is not until the end of Christ's future thousand years reign. And that is what that idea there of "perdition" is about.

 

12    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13    These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14    These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)
 

Verse 12 links the prophecy in Daniel about the ten horns and the little horn that comes up among the ten. That beast king from v.11 is who these ten kings (ten horns) give their power to, i.e., to the "little horn" of the Daniel prophecy. They are not giving their power and strength to the beast kingdom or system, but to the beast king himself, the 7th king that was to come in John's days, and still to come in our days.