Isaiah 47: is America this present age's Babylon?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

 

Sorry, your "then"s are all out of whack. Did you not read that the ten throw in with the Beast for "one hour?" And that one hour is VERY LATE in the 70th week. The false prophet shows up shortly after the midpoint. Your timing is OFF. And John TELLS US when God's wrath begins - WAY BACK at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. The ENTIRE 70th WEEK is God's wrath. Finally, JESUS does NOT RETURN at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is  false doctrine. did you not read chapters 17, 18, and much of 19 that must take place before Jesus returns?

 

LAMAD

 

First off, its not doctrine.  Its an interpretation.  I don't try and pass it off as unchangeable truth.  I realize that I could be wrong, but its what makes the most sense to me.  I can say with a high degree of confidence that none of us has it all figured out.  That being said...

 

Did you not read where the false prophet pulls three of the horns out by their roots?  Sounds more like a throw-down than a throw-in to me.  The beast is an evil angel and the 10 are likely clueless that they are serving his (ultimately God's) purpose.  The beast of Rev 13:1 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are not the same.

 

"...While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it.  Daniel 7:8

 

The seventh trumpet and vial occur in quick succession.  The trumpet announces the return of our Lord and the vial being poured out indicates the completion thereof.  The final judgment of Babylon happens during the seventh trumpet / vial return of Christ.

 

When an artist paints a painting, it starts as an outline and then colors are added as the artist sees fit, same as when when a house is built.  The framework goes up first, then other components are added to make the house complete.  In the same way, there are end time prophecies throughout the Bible, some of which are a framework or outline and others add color or details to other prophecies.  Chronology is only relevant in as much as it makes sense such i.e. 1st seal, 2nd seal....1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet....1st vial, 2nd vial...  The fact that something is written in Revelation 17 does not mean that it can't add color to something or help fill in the blanks in say chapter 13.  Context is king.  Take things out of context and you start drifting into irrelevance.

 

Prophecy and dogma don't get along.

 

You are speaking of a DIFFERENT "10." Yes, there are 10 when the beast rises to power, and He takes down 3, leaving 7, and then he becomes the 8th. Good point. But John speaks of ANOTHER 10 that throw in with him at the end. When the spirits are sent out at the 6th vial, that is, in my opinion, when these ten throw in with him for "one hour." they come with their combined armies to the battle of Armageddon. However, I doubt seriously they are told they are coming to fight with God Himself! My guess is they join together to wipe Israel off the map. What a surprise they get!

 

I disagree: it is the little horn in Daniel 8 that is different, being about Antiochus. I believe the little horn in chapter 11 IS the Beast of Revelation 13. Why do you not?

 

The seventh trumpet and vial occur in quick succession.

 

How can you say that? To say that, you must rearrange the book!  No one has authority to rearrange Revelation. The truth is, NO vial will be poured out until all 7 of the trumpets are sounded. The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, the 7th vial the END of the week.  

 

The trumpet announces the return of our Lord

 

Please show us how you get to this conclusion? What is it about the 7th trumpet that announces His return?

 

the vial being poured out indicates the completion thereof.

 

I disagree: it indicates the end or completion of the 70th week. The entire 70th week is "marked" by the 7's.

 

The final judgment of Babylon happens during the seventh trumpet / vial return of Christ.

 

You are rearranging again! Revelation   needs no rearranging. In truth, the final judgment comes in chapters 17 & 18 before Jesus returns.

 

Axiom on Revelation:

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

Context is king.

WOW! You said a mouthful there! Good point! Most people miss the fact that the vision in chapters 4 & 5 are the context for the first seals. So they are usually off in when those first seals were broken.

 

As for chronology, John was meticulous, using numbers for sequencing in the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials. With so much care of timing there, why would anyone think they should have to rearrange the rest? in fact, John wrote things in the very order they will take place. Any time anyone's theory forces them to rearrange, their theory will be proven wrong.

 

I agree, chapters 13 and 17 have some common elements.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

LAMAD

Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth."

This can not be jerusalem as it is promised in BIBLICAL LAW Jerusalem was to be over the nations only if she was obedient to the Covenant Deuteronomy 28:1, 9-10, 13-14, 7:14

Could you explain that one for me please? 

Jerusalem is where the Antichrist Beast (Rev. 13) will reside during the last half of the 70th week. WHERE ELSE would someone go, trying to imitate Christ? He would CERTAINLY NOT go to the Vatican! Jesus came to JERUSALEM. Jesus will RETURN to Jerusalem, and set up His earthly kingdom from Jerusalem.

 

Remember, the deception coming from the Beast and False Prophet will be SO STRONG, they will deceive the entire world, save those whose names are written in heaven. it is by way of deception that they rule. Here it what John said about the kings of the world:

 

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication  17:2

the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. 17:18

the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,  18:3

the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her  18:9

 

So HOW does Jerusalem fulfull these things? With DECEPTION; causing the entire world to actually believe that the Beast is the God of the Jews, indeed the God of creation! It is written that "all the world wondered after the beast." And the Beast, for this time, will be living in JERUSALEM, so the city of God, the very city that God wished to use to demonstrate the goodness of God (as in the days of Solomon) turns out to deceive the entire world into false worship.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

LAMAD

Also....The antichrist destroys mystery babylon...now if he destroys jerusalem...where does he rule from then?

the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:16-18).

 John is saying that the Antichrist and his kingdom, with its seven heads and ten horns will hate Mystery Babylon. This is an incredible prophecy of how the Antichrist will destroy Mystery Babylon and then dominate the entire earth. The seven heads and ten horns will be unified in their purpose and they will give their power to the Antichrist. The Antichrist will use his power to destroy Mystery Babylon the Great by fire.

now how does he dominate the world after he has just destroyed jerusalem?

Where does Jesus reign now?

If you notice, Jerusalem does not get destroyed (burned) until chapter 18, just before Jesus returns. OF COURSE the man of sin leaves Jerusalem before then! But He will spend most of the last half of the week ruling from Jerusalem.

 

"the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

 

Did you notice this is in chapter 17, just before the city is destroyed? it is not the Beast that hates Jerusalem, it is the ten kings that throw in with him for "one hour." I can convinced this is AFTER the week has finished. i am also convinced these ten are NOT THE SAME ten of which the Beast took out three. It is a different ten, perhaps from the EU? Perhaps the 'Stan countries?

 

Therefore He will dominate the world BEFORE Jerusalem is destroyed - which event happens just shortly before Jesus returns. In fact, it may be happening AS He returns.

 

Jesus is reigning now over the heavenly realms and the body of Christ on earth...at least those that try to stay in His will. The day will come (7th trumpet) when He will reign supreme over the earth.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

LAMAD

You did not understand my question

Sovereignty over the kings of the earth means ruling over the entire world, whither that be through war, policies or deciptions doesn't change the fact of sovereignty

Satan can not over ride God's decrees with jerusalem. No matter how strong the delusion is Jerusalem can only gain sovereignty by being obedient to the Covenant Deuteronomy 28:1, 9-10, 13-14, 7:14

there is no other way...Satan can not overide God's decrees

Yet God has given the Beast 42 months of authority over all the earth.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

The Rev.17:16 verse of what the ten kings will do to Jerusalem is symbolic for being part of the Antichrist's power in causing the "abomination of desolation" event there. That is how they will hate the whore and make her desolate, not with a literal destruction, but with a spiritual destruction away from true worship.

 

When we come to Revelation, are just supposed to forget all the prophecies given for the end, especially Christ's warning of the Daniel "abomination of desolation" prophecy for Jerusalem at the end?

[Salty]

Salty

No, we must just ignore your version.

You have failed to prove that jerusalem and babylon are the same city.

You have contradicted marriage laws and God's covenant with jerusalem

You have further invented history on the district ion of babylon.

You have failed to prove anything. I have proved you scriptural and historical rebuttles to your theory that doesn't violate scripture and you have no answer for.

 

I have not failed, not even with trying to get you to see it, for I believe deep down in your heart you know it is true, you just don't want to accept it.

 

We will see how geographical Babylon, which today still lays a waste, will come to power and glory like of old, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, per your theory, just because you don't accept the idea of the end time Babylon harlot metaphor pointing to Jerusalem, even though God gave it in His Word about the false worship of the Antichrist there for the end of this world.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Babylon today does not lay waste but is being restored by America & the United Nations. You need just google `Babylon,` & you will see what they are doing.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Babylon today does not lay waste but is being restored by America & the United Nations. You need just google `Babylon,` & you will see what they are doing.

 

No, you're just wanting for it to appear like its being restored to its former glory, just so you can keep to the idea that Revelation is speaking of geographical Babylon. Saddam Hussein tried to restore it, and who ended his rule that prevented him from continuing that? The nations. Some will probably keep trying to do it, but it will never be restored to its former glory, it is still a wasteland, a desert, only with some restored construction, nothing like the Babylon of old. Nor will it ever fit the role of commerce among the nations like Revelation speaks of in Rev.18.

 

But with the Scripture example with Jerusalem being pointed to 'spiritually' as Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8, where God sends His two witnesses to prophesy against the 'beast', in a time when the abomination idol is setup there in a rebuilt temple, and with the Antichrist's demand that all bow to the "image of the beast" in false worship or be killed, like in the Daniel 3 parallel, there... you have the role of the Revelation Babylon harlot city, and the king of Babylon, for the very end of this world.

[Salty]

Salty

Has it ever occurred to you why God ONLY mentions egypt and sodom? And never Babylon?

Has it ever occurred to you that history of the decline of babylon shows the destruction of literal babylon has not been fulfilled? I'm still waiting for your answer on this.

 

If you're speaking of geographical Babylon not having been destroyed yet, then you'd be going backwards in history.

 

Here's a test for you in our near future: - wait and see where the symbolic king of Babylon for the end will be setup, geographical Babylon in modern day Iraq, or in Jerusalem as spiritual Babylon. If we see the coming Antichrist, which will be the symbolic 'king of Babylon' for the end, sets himself up in a temple in geographical Babylon instead of Jerusalem, then I will agree with you.

 

But I'm sure I don't have to be concerned about agreeing with you, because all The Scriptures point to the coming pseudo-Christ, the Antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, "that Wicked", the "little horn", the "vile person", to... Jerusalem to set himself up in place of God The Son, The Messiah.

[Salty]

Salty,

You said you proved it to me, where please show me with history, Babylon declined over time and not destroyed like prophecy fortold

 

Yes, and you know it in your heart, if you belong to Christ, even though you outwardly have difficulty in admitting it. How do I know that?

 

Because you would have to go against all the Scripture I referred to in my above post about the false one coming to Jerusalem to set himself up in place of God, and not geographical Babylon. Those Scriptures are specific to Jerusalem, and I think you well know that.